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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8715885" data-attributes="member: 93670">5e is designed so that bob never really even needs to listen to attempts at a plan let alone agree to one.  When a PC dies is one of the few times that the ignored party members have any leverage that won't generate a self inflicted wound on the party for using it.There are a ton of ways that a player can refuse to work with more supporty elements, that's only one of them.  Battlefield control.  Buff/debuff spells & abilities, protective abilities, even flanking or refusing to position for an aura/aoe benefit from another player in order to gain flanking.  Yes I've seen players put more effort into working with the group & not treating their fellow players as sidekicks after being pressured while dead.This is where you are starting with the wrong situation... Keep reading beyond the bolded bit. [spoiler="This is the very next sentence you quoted"]<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/if-not-death-then-what.690194/post-8715592" target="_blank">"It's easy to ignore pleading from players trying to play a support character when there's no consequence but not so much when the other players can apply pressure to cooperate more in the future by rubbing it in when someone is dead because they weren't working together as a group.".</a>[/spoiler]ignoring it  like that gives bob a whole lot more room to cry foul than he ever did when he's dead & the group has a situation where they can push back over being treated like sidekicks.This isn't about perceived failures, it's about slighted players pushing back as I described. In the span of one post you took bob from someone who ignores support classes & treats fellow players like sidekicks getting pressured to be less toxic to them  & made him into someone entirely different.  Your bob is simply a player who got unlucky or failed at executing a plan they took the effort to agree to & is being whipped into shape to up his game to their level by a toxic group.  Now you've moved on to telling his group why they just need to pretend that bob's toxic fun is not toxic.  These two bobs are not the same and it's not reasonable to expect us all to just pretend that one of them is not toxic. [USER=86653]@overgeeked[/USER] made a great <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/questions-for-zero-character-death-players-and-dms%E2%80%A6.690183/post-8714096" target="_blank">comment</a> about that kind of thing enabling toxic players the other day & this toxicity transference from bob to bob's group is a great example of how easy it is to accomplish.</blockquote>

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