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<blockquote data-quote="Cadence" data-source="post: 8019182" data-attributes="member: 6701124">If the jury is still out, and not easily decided on the side of being the same, then it still supports that ability to interbreed isn't a determining factor in what makes a species.&nbsp; (See also Macaws, Bonobos and Chimps, etc..)&nbsp; Both chimpanzees and humans carry a large number of common DNA from a shared ancestor - so a large amount of common DNA from an ancestor doesn't seem deciding either.&nbsp; Speciation seems a slide rather than a switch, unless each new species arrives together in at least one matched pair from the previous.If the entire corpus of the Legendarium is used as deciding, then is much of anything sure in Middle Earth?&nbsp; The Ainulindale and Silmarillion seem fairly clear on them being two separate groups.&nbsp;&nbsp; The Gift of Men by Iluvatar vs. immortality for the elves seems a fairly important thing in the stories, with the Silmarillion as published finding some backing in LotR.&nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Luthien became mortal and was lost to Elven-kind&quot; seems to fit pretty well there., as does the irrevocable choice given to Elrond and Elros.&nbsp;&nbsp; Does &quot;they must reamain mortal, since the Valar were not permitted to take from them the Gift of Men&quot; or letting Elrond's children choose it make any sense if death was merely something Morgoth gave to some elves he corrrupted?&nbsp; (As opposed to Morgoth and subsequently Sauron lying to the men about it).&nbsp; It feels as if the memory and wisdom of Galadriel and her kin (stretching back to Valinor before the Noldor rebelled) might be more trustworthy in such things than the legends of men.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadence, post: 8019182, member: 6701124"] If the jury is still out, and not easily decided on the side of being the same, then it still supports that ability to interbreed isn't a determining factor in what makes a species. (See also Macaws, Bonobos and Chimps, etc..) Both chimpanzees and humans carry a large number of common DNA from a shared ancestor - so a large amount of common DNA from an ancestor doesn't seem deciding either. Speciation seems a slide rather than a switch, unless each new species arrives together in at least one matched pair from the previous. If the entire corpus of the Legendarium is used as deciding, then is much of anything sure in Middle Earth? The Ainulindale and Silmarillion seem fairly clear on them being two separate groups. The Gift of Men by Iluvatar vs. immortality for the elves seems a fairly important thing in the stories, with the Silmarillion as published finding some backing in LotR. "Luthien became mortal and was lost to Elven-kind" seems to fit pretty well there., as does the irrevocable choice given to Elrond and Elros. Does "they must reamain mortal, since the Valar were not permitted to take from them the Gift of Men" or letting Elrond's children choose it make any sense if death was merely something Morgoth gave to some elves he corrrupted? (As opposed to Morgoth and subsequently Sauron lying to the men about it). It feels as if the memory and wisdom of Galadriel and her kin (stretching back to Valinor before the Noldor rebelled) might be more trustworthy in such things than the legends of men. [/QUOTE]

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