Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 2733999" data-attributes="member: 2020">I would like to respond to the posts above.    Phraseology is a word I heard in Music Man.  I doubt it is an actual word in the Dictionary.  I used it for convenience, and was trying to be a little humorous too.  I am overly verbose.  That is the difference between me and a good writer:  a good writer can say profound and varied things with a few words, and I cannot.  Perhaps RPGs will never be more popular than they are now.  Perhaps they will only be a niche.  I hope this is not what will happen.  But it may happen.  It will be very sad to me, if it happens that way.  It is depressing, to me, to think of our Hobby as permanently a niche affair.  I agree that RPGs require that effort be put into them, for there to be fun.  The game does not play itself:  the players must play it.  And I agree that personality is a big factor - but that subject, the personality factor, is so complicated I could not hope to deal with it.  An expert in human psychology I am not.  I mean ... my history of gaming goes like a computer software program ... you throw people together, get a DM, and hope it works.  In my case, sometimes it worked great ... and sometimes it crashed as badly as any software could (I mean, as in taking the very computer itself out with it!)  There was one roleplaying game I could compare with Quantom Mechanics.  That was Rolemaster.  I am proud to have actually run two rolemaster games ... even if they did leave me flat on my back for a week afterwards (not from the mental strain, but from my hands falling off from flipping through rulebooks at the speed of light, for 6 hours straight.)  I wish to make an additional comment here, though:  for some reason, teenagers seem to have the knack of freeform interpersonal communication down better ... in roleplaying games.  Don't ask me why, for I do not know.  Everything would tend to indicate that teenagers are the last people with high freeform interpersonal communication skills, yet they seem to do the best at RPGs.  At least, in my own history, that is my experience.  This enigma, I leave to others to decipher.  Before all the adults on this board jump on me, I am merely citing my own personal experiences, and they may not be your experiences.  And I will be the first person to say that it doesn't make sense, especially given the temperament and rebellious nature of teenagers.  -  Why not strenuously advertise the game?  And advertise it as a relaxing way to have some fun?  Advertise it as simple, laid back, good natured, and a pleasant way to expend time and energy?  Unfortunately, I'm guessing many of you might say that our Hobby is not a simple, laid back, good natured, pleasant way to expend time and energy.  Some of you might say the whole atmosphere of the Hobby is poisoned.  I've heard some of you say just that.  I've heard it said in many ways, some not overt or obvious:  I am the DM, and thou shalt do as I say!  Well, we are the players, and we'll find a new DM!  (Not very laid back)  Those rules stink.  These rules are the only good rules.  Your character is a munchkin.  That campaign world stinks.  (Not very good natured.)  That player is a DM's pet.  That player is an attention hog.  That player is a bully.  That player smells.  That player plays that OTHER game:  ick!  (Not very pleasant.)  You spent $40 on books, yes, but you can't use them.  The DM spent two weeks prepping his campaign, but the players refuse to cooperate and they wrecked everything.  (Not a good use of time and energy.)    (to use Monopoly as an analogy)  Any DM allowing someone to put a house on Boardwalk is a lousy DM.  Any player doing so is a munchkin.  Anyone using the DO NOT PASS GO rule is using the wrong edition.  Did you know the new rules for putting homes on the railroads?  (I insist on version 3.0 of the railroad rules!  I insist on version 3.5 of the railroad rules!  Well, I insist on version 2.0 of the railroad rules.  Well, all of you are wrong:  the 1.0 version was the only way to go.)  Can you imagine a group of people sitting down to play Monopoly with this situation at hand?  I doubt the game would get played.  I think they might have a hard time even getting the game started.  When the disagreements I cited above become personal, and the insults start flying (and the insults do start flying), then the atmosphere has become poisoned.  And who will want to sit down and play a Monopoly game where nobody can agree on the rules, everyone is arguing, and insults are flying?  Better to sit and play that computer game or watch that cable show ... they are freer of the arguing, the insults, and the fear and anger and stress that is caused by the same ...  Well ok, perhaps our Hobby is not as laid back, pleasant, easy going, and hunky dory as we would like it.  People ARE people, after all, and they will quarrel - be they teens or the elderly or anything in between.  But we can do our best to make our Hobby as laid back, pleasant, easy going, and attractive to newcomers and old-timers alike, no?    And we can advertise it as such.  Because our Hobby MUST COMPETE AGAINST numerous entertainment mediums that ARE laid back, pleasant, easy going, and attractive to new comers.  If we cannot compete, how can we stay in business?  Ok, you can let me have it now ... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />   -  Umbran, can you describe value proposition better?  I don't understand what you mean by the phraseology (hehe, there's Music Man again!)  When I was a teenager, my teachers constantly beat into me and my colleagues the utter importance of study and hard work.  When they were not doing so, our parents were.  The alternative to hard work and achievement was constantly pointed out:  menial labor, low wages, low benefits, and outright starvation.  Every horror they had themselves experienced, and every horror they could imagine, they threw at us, held over us as the consequences of not diligently studying, not working hard.  Frankly, it was terrifying.  And it became more and more terrifying as we grew to realize they were quite right about the matter.  We gamed anyways, of course.  And in the end gaming was not a significant factor in our success or lack of success later on.  The detractors of our Hobby would say otherwise, of course, but my opinion is that gaming had no influence on 'Winning' or 'Losing' in life.  What I WILL say with conviction is that:  the game and the fun was over all too soon, for all of else.  Much like weekends or holidays are over all too soon.  And choretime is quick to return, and return it does, with a vengeance.  I think that most of our DMs would have agreed with you, that DMing was a 'fun' kind of work.  A few would have disagreed (especially when they were sleepy, and players wanted their services anyways!)  As for the players, they almost always thought of the playing part as fun.  That's a given.  How to make the game seem 'fun' to newcomers and regulars alike?  I don't know.  Because I don't know how to overcome the current poisoned atmosphere that permeates our Hobby.  I see the young and newcomers discouraged, dissed, and turned away from games - I've seen this happen personally.    When young newcomers actually sit to play, rules are thrown at them, then errata, then counterrules, then counter-errata, then everyone argues over which rules will be used, then arguments break out over interpretation of individual rules everyone had previously agreed upon, then personal dislikes and animosities break out, and people bring Real Life problems into the game, and Group Politics raises it's ugly head, and the newcomer may or may not be good with his communication skills, and the players at the table may or may not be able to communicate effectively, and may or may not WANT to communicate effectively, and ... well, at that point, the 16 year old is fleeing for his life from the Gaming Table.  This is especially true if all the current gamers are older than the newcomer, and particularly true if they look down upon him as a youngling (which occurs.)  Unfortunately, most of us who game currently are older, and it seems to me we intimidate the young with our age.  I mean, it's not our fault.  Aging is normal (hopefully!)  But the young seem to prefer gaming with others of their own age ... and there aren't any D&Ders of their own age, hardly, to game with, it seems.  How to fix this?  I don't know.  Many of the gamers I know do not want the young in their games at all, so it's a moot point.  As for the poisoned atmosphere, I don't have any answer to it.  I am guessing most of those here on ENWorld will disagree on the matter of there even being a poisoned atmosphere:  in their opinion, this is not the case.  It is my opinion, but not theirs.  I cannot debate how to correct a poisoned atmosphere, when (apparently) few acknowledge that such a situation even exists.  In my own defense, all I can do is point to that other thread where they are debating why the hobby is having problems (dying, to quote some of them.)  They seem to think there is a problem, and they are struggling with ways to fix what they see as problems.  I guess that means there are problems to be fixed?    Phatic communion?  I don't understand.  Could you elaborate on that?  Alcohol terrifies me.  I've seen what it does to women:  it renders them devastatingly vulnerable to the bad behavior of men.  My personal experience only, of course, and not necessarily the general rule, but there it is.  Alcohol removes the restraint people put on themselves.  If people are inclined to argue or stubbornly and dramatically post an opinion, I'm guessing that alcohol will exacerbate this - and this, also, is my personal experience with alcohol drinkers.  I mean, it's fine to drink.  I don't have a problem with that.  I just don't drink myself.  But the idea of 5 or 6 men, argumentative and cocky to start with, getting inebriated and THEN starting in on a rules argument, is not a scene I wish to imagine.  (I've seen fistfights over RISK games, when everyone was cold stone sober.  That's more than enough for me.)  Imagine an evil party, where everyone thinks it's ok to knife the other characters in the back, then imagine everyone at that table drinking, and slowly getting more and more inebriated, even as they start killing each other's characters.  I would have to wonder, just how far the violence would go, in that case ... (the dentists of the world would love such situations, I'm guessing)  A LITTLE beer or wine is fine.  But of course, what is a little beer or wine varies from person to person.  And sometimes a little becomes a lot, in a hurry.  Ok, once more, everyone can jump on me now ...  I must seriously wonder how many people I've infuriated with this post so far.  I'm guessing it's a LOT.  And I'm sorry, because infuriating folk seems to be what I do best and communicating effectively what I do least well.    I'm not trying to dis anyone.  I am not attempting to put anyone down - it might SEEM like that, but it isn't the case.  I'm merely giving personal opinions based on limited personal experience.  Take it for what it is:  just one person's flawed viewpoint, based on flawed and limited experiences.  -  To William:  I don't know.  And, I don't know.  AND, I don't know.  If I had the Answer to things, I'd be a famous Gaming Designer.  I'm not kidding.  And a multimillionaire to boot.  (Remember Tanis, from Dragonlance, and how he told Lord Amothus of Palanthus that if he had the answers, he'd have a wagonload of clerics following him around all the time, and hordes of people looking to him?)  I love the Hobby.  I have had GREAT times in the Hobby.  The Hobby is so special to me I keep a Historic Library of TSR and WOTC Products in memory of it (as you well know.)  ANYTHING that makes the Hobby prosper, is great to me.  Anything that brings in new people, is great to me.  Anything that makes the Hobby more appealing, is great to me.  Doesn't matter what it is.  I mean, if they decided Krynnish Kender were the main race of the game, Santa Elves and Snow-White Dwarves were the alternate, the classes were were limited to ninja/clerics (of Eldath), ninja/cavalier/paladins, and ninja/dwarven battleragers, and all weapons had to be made of seaweed and grey ooze mixed (how you wield one, without being eaten, is your problem) that would be fine with me - so long as it made the Hobby grow, made the Hobby funner, and caused new people to join the Hobby.  That's my stance.  And, my stance is, that anything that is hurting the Hobby, is unfortunate and sad and a nuisance, and something should be done about it.  A paradigm shift?  An attitude shift?  Is that what you mean?  If yes, agreed?  But how?  And that is the 50 million dollar question.  I have no answer (and no 50 million dollars.)  Ok, I'm going to point out something, which is a personal experience, which will make even MORE PEOPLE MAD at me.  You know, aim gun, shoot foot?  Open mouth, stick foot in?  That kind of thing.  In my experience, the Hobby punishes creativity and imagination.  It vigorously suppresses both.  This is partly due to that human failing we call jealousy.  He thinks he's smart.  He isn't so smart.  He's just a show-off.  (I've seen parties turn on creative thinking, even when it meant a Total Party Kill.  I'm not joking or exaggerating.  To the players, dissing and stopping the creativity, the imagination, was more important than the survival of their characters.  Of course, if that player continued being creative and imaginative, he was not welcome anymore in the group.)  It is also, as the above should make obvious, a matter of Group Politics.  That ugly subject in it's tortuous complexities I'll leave for another time:  it is enough to say that Politics is ugly (they don't ban it here on ENWorld for no reason) and when it gets into the game, it squashes all else.  And, of course, there is the little fact that the DM often thinks of himself (or herself) as being in competition with the players.  The players are the foe.  The players must be outsmarted and outthought at every turn.  The players must never think up a way to outsmart or outfox the DM:  if that happens, then the players must be put in their place!  Also, creativity and imagination must have a framework of rules to use.  In a situation where the rules are constantly changing as the DM, players, and game designers change them, where do creativity and imagination take a stand?  I mean, consider Tom Bombadil, the result of the imagination of J.R.R. Tolkien.  But Tom Bombadil went by rules.  His claimed land had boundaries.  His routes along the Withywindle were at certain times of the year.  His power was defined.  The geography around him was a given.  The dangers of the area were also a given.  So, Frodo and Company go into Old Forest, are forced into Withywindle Valley, are caught by Old Man Willow, saved by Tom Bombadil, stay at Tom Bombadil's house for two days, meet Goldberry, travel through the Barrow Downs, get caught by a Barrow Wight, are saved by Tom again, then escorted to the Great Road by Tom.  That's a given.  And it's based on a concrete setting.  Now imagine that you have this setting, but it's not in a book.  It's a game setting.  And it, and all it's realities, are constantly being altered by game designers, DMs, and players.  Tom Bombadil can defeat Barrow Wights.  No he can't!  He can defeat them, but not Old Man Willow.  He can't defeat anyone.  Goldberry is a nymph.  No, she's a dryad.  No, she's a silkie.  No, she's a siren.  No, she's a harpy.  Old Forest is huge.  No, it's small.  No, it's not there at all:  there is a field there.  No, it's an illusion, and actually a lake.  Frodo and his Company have ponies.  No, they don't.  Ponies CAN walk up steep slopes.  No, they can't.  Well, they get a saving throw against Old Forest.  No, they don't.  Water will suffocate Frodo.  No, hobbits are immune to suffocation.  Yes, it is autumn.  No, it is summer.  I say it's spring.  Well, I say there are no seasons in Middle Earth.  Well * I * say it's winter, so it's WINTER.  (but does it snow in wintertime?  The climate is warm.  No, it's cold.  No, it's ...)  Now, imagine that someone picks up The Fellowship of the Ring, and for some reason Tolkien decided to write, then rewrite, then rewrite, then rewrite, the Tom Bombadil section until it took up the entire book (all 350 pages or so) and then another 350 pages for good measure, until the reader screamed aloud whenever the word Tom was ever mentioned again.  Not only is the newcomer to the Hobby faced with such a situation, but his imagination is faced with this hurdle.  Add in Group Politics, DM Adversity, arguing players, ambigous situations (in which D&D is chockfull) in which neither the DM nor the players can figure out what the rules mean ... well, you get the picture.  Bird watching never had it so good.  (That is a sparrow.  No, that's a dove.  No, that's a finch.  No, that's a robin.  I'm the DM, and I say it's a purple martin!  Well, we say it's a blackbird.  Well, the designer says it's a bluejay.  Well, in the new edition, it's a ... )  Ok, once more everyone can unload on me here ...  I don't have any answers.  Just a lot of questions, and questions about where to start questioning.  Just call me Clueless, to use the Planescape expression.  I just hope the magic works for the game.  It's worked since 1972.  It can still work.  There is no rule that says our Hobby has to die, or diminish.  And hey, everything ever published for the Hobby is still out there - in a sense, the Hobby is bigger now than ever before in history.  With each day, more material is released for it.  I salute the Hobby, and I salute those who make a living off of it (which isn't easy!), and those who try to enjoy it (which also isn't always easy!)  To all, I give my salutations.  May the Hobby flourish.  WHAT?  You mean you actually READ through this entire post, and soaked up all my drivel?!  What are you, a masochist?  You're a worthy candidate to be a Cleric of Loviatar, Our Lady of Pain, then! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Edena_of_Neith</blockquote>

Verification