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If the devils are how monsters will be....I am so happy
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<blockquote data-quote="Peter LaCara" data-source="post: 4042526" data-attributes="member: 59466"><p>Maybe it's just me, but this seems.... suicidal at best. Your spellcasters either have to come with silent versions of all their spells, or stand outside the silence radius, in which case they get pasted anyway.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I guess it would be. I guess if the choice is between taking your casters out of the fight or the whole party getting aced by Blasphemy, that would be a tactical choice.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Maybe, maybe not. We don't know what the defensive and evasion abilities of a 26th level character look like, so it's hard to tell. It certainly seems like it's going to be a rough encounter, but I don't know about unwinnable.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is what I'm saying. Let's compare it to the Ice Archon, the only other high-ish level monster we've seen stats for. The Pit Fiend does d12+11 fire damage (which I bet the PCs are going to be able to defend against at least a little, though not as effectively as in 3.5). The Archon does d10+9+5 cold, at eight levels lower than the Pit Fiend. The devil is clearly not supposed to be a heavy melee lifter.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I've mentioned my hate-on for Dispel Magic already, and it's been stated ad nauseum that we don't know how readily available resistances will be and what ways there are to counter them.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I suspect they have. High level 4e combat is going to look <em>nothing</em> like high level 3.5 combat. I consider this a good thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>He can still debuff and tactically teleport his buddies around. This is nothing to sneeze at.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I probably shouldn't have been so hostile before, so sorry about that. I will note that I never said that SLAs weren't effective, and I don't think anyone here is arguing that. I do, however, argue that they are <em>lame</em>, and if you can achieve similar and more balanced and interesting results by custom-tailoring powers to monsters, so much the better.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fair enough. I think this is a result of the new design philosophy with combat roles. Leaders don't get crowd contol abilities, as that isn't their job. Their job is to coordinate movement and make their allies more effective. The Pit Fiend is likely to have a Controller devil or dark wizard at his right hand to provide the crowd control you're looking for.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They did plenty. But this Pit Fiend has plenty to do with his abilities and auras too. You are arguing that the Pit Fiend will be less tactical because it has fewer options. I argue that the Pit Fiend has the same number of options, though a few of them are different, so it will be differently tactical. Perhaps the power level is different. Again, we have no way of judging until we see an equivalent level PC, so worrying about that is sort of pointless.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>See comments above re: hating Dispel Magic </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We probably have been playing a different game, honestly. I don't play high level D&D because I don't like it. I tend to stick to low and mid levels where SLAs are rare and unique abilities are more common, because I think they're more interesting and easier to run.</p><p></p><p>[quoteI'll have to wait until I see how the characters compare to this Pit Fiend. But on paper he looks pretty weak and limited.</p></blockquote><p></p><p>Well, if you felt like the 3.5 Pit Fiend was the perfect expression of such a monster, and you have such mastery of the 3.5 rules and you seem so happy with them... it makes me wonder why you'd bother switching at all. I mean, no one here is gonna stop you from continuing to play 3.5, obviously. 3.5 seems like a good game for you. Everything I've seen about 4e makes it out to be "a laundry list of things Peter LaCara thinks would make a great game," so I'ma go for the new shiny.</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Peter LaCara, post: 4042526, member: 59466"] Maybe it's just me, but this seems.... suicidal at best. Your spellcasters either have to come with silent versions of all their spells, or stand outside the silence radius, in which case they get pasted anyway. I guess it would be. I guess if the choice is between taking your casters out of the fight or the whole party getting aced by Blasphemy, that would be a tactical choice. Maybe, maybe not. We don't know what the defensive and evasion abilities of a 26th level character look like, so it's hard to tell. It certainly seems like it's going to be a rough encounter, but I don't know about unwinnable. This is what I'm saying. Let's compare it to the Ice Archon, the only other high-ish level monster we've seen stats for. The Pit Fiend does d12+11 fire damage (which I bet the PCs are going to be able to defend against at least a little, though not as effectively as in 3.5). The Archon does d10+9+5 cold, at eight levels lower than the Pit Fiend. The devil is clearly not supposed to be a heavy melee lifter. I've mentioned my hate-on for Dispel Magic already, and it's been stated ad nauseum that we don't know how readily available resistances will be and what ways there are to counter them. I suspect they have. High level 4e combat is going to look [i]nothing[/i] like high level 3.5 combat. I consider this a good thing. He can still debuff and tactically teleport his buddies around. This is nothing to sneeze at. I probably shouldn't have been so hostile before, so sorry about that. I will note that I never said that SLAs weren't effective, and I don't think anyone here is arguing that. I do, however, argue that they are [i]lame[/i], and if you can achieve similar and more balanced and interesting results by custom-tailoring powers to monsters, so much the better. Fair enough. I think this is a result of the new design philosophy with combat roles. Leaders don't get crowd contol abilities, as that isn't their job. Their job is to coordinate movement and make their allies more effective. The Pit Fiend is likely to have a Controller devil or dark wizard at his right hand to provide the crowd control you're looking for. They did plenty. But this Pit Fiend has plenty to do with his abilities and auras too. You are arguing that the Pit Fiend will be less tactical because it has fewer options. I argue that the Pit Fiend has the same number of options, though a few of them are different, so it will be differently tactical. Perhaps the power level is different. Again, we have no way of judging until we see an equivalent level PC, so worrying about that is sort of pointless. See comments above re: hating Dispel Magic We probably have been playing a different game, honestly. I don't play high level D&D because I don't like it. I tend to stick to low and mid levels where SLAs are rare and unique abilities are more common, because I think they're more interesting and easier to run. [quoteI'll have to wait until I see how the characters compare to this Pit Fiend. But on paper he looks pretty weak and limited.[/QUOTE] Well, if you felt like the 3.5 Pit Fiend was the perfect expression of such a monster, and you have such mastery of the 3.5 rules and you seem so happy with them... it makes me wonder why you'd bother switching at all. I mean, no one here is gonna stop you from continuing to play 3.5, obviously. 3.5 seems like a good game for you. Everything I've seen about 4e makes it out to be "a laundry list of things Peter LaCara thinks would make a great game," so I'ma go for the new shiny. [/QUOTE]
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