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Message: <blockquote data-quote="GuardianLurker" data-source="post: 409360" data-attributes="member: 786">1e/2e: First level fighter's save versus Sleep or other first level spell : 17.3e: 1st level fighter's save vs Sleep or other first level spell : 11+Caster's Bonuses-Ftr' Save Bonus. For a CR 4 or 5 caster, the caster bonuses are probably just straight Int, and maybe Spell Focus. Assume the unlikely 18 Int and Spell focus. Assume the 1st level fighter has no bonuses from his stats. Save DCs are 15/17/17. More typically, the save DCs will be much lower; Given typical stat bonuses for a 1st level fighter (+2 Con, +1 Dex, +0 Wis) those save DCs drop to 13/16/17; no spell focus knocks another 2 off. And a CR 4 or 5 wizard is likely to only have a 16 or 17 Int, losing another point. Typical tally? 10/13/14Actually thinking about it though, I'd buy another DMG at $10 higher for a CR/EL system that worked!</blockquote>