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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7920563" data-attributes="member: 16814">This is Force.&nbsp; This GM is changing/ignoring the rules of the game to force an outcome the GM desires.&nbsp; Clearly, the player here has engaged the rules but the outcome is not to the GM's liking, so the GM's unilaterally changes the game to get the outcome the GM wants.&nbsp; Force.Not really.&nbsp; The fundamental play loop of 5e, for instance (as a game with a Rule Zero), is that the GM describes the scene, the players declare actions, and the GM determines the success of those actions, either through fiat or mechanics (forgive the bluntness, I love 5e, but it's full of GM fiat).&nbsp; If the GM is forcing outcomes on the players it's almost always not following this play loop, hence the GM is ignoring the core play rules of the game.GM Force is strongly encouraged by Rule Zero.&nbsp; Rule Zero is a force multiplier for Force (heh).&nbsp; They aren't orthogonal at all, but rather strongly correlated.&nbsp;&nbsp; Games that have Rule Zero also often are very friendly to GM Force techniques.Again, I love 5e, and, when I play it, GM Force is a tool in my box.&nbsp; It's not inherently bad -- many players enjoy a bit of Force, especially Illusionism, because it provides a fun play experience where there are fewer demands on the players (the GM is using Force to create a fun game instead of leaning on the players to help).&nbsp; Being aware of it will improve your play in that you're now making more informed and critical choices in what tools you bring to bear on a situation.&nbsp; You don't have to make sure that what it is you like to do isn't Force, because it being Force doesn't make it bad (unless you hate Force, of course).&nbsp; It's helpful to be open to understanding that the default mode of play for modern D&amp;D is GM Force, what that is, how it works, and how you use it.&nbsp; It's just a tool.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7920563, member: 16814"] This is Force. This GM is changing/ignoring the rules of the game to force an outcome the GM desires. Clearly, the player here has engaged the rules but the outcome is not to the GM's liking, so the GM's unilaterally changes the game to get the outcome the GM wants. Force. Not really. The fundamental play loop of 5e, for instance (as a game with a Rule Zero), is that the GM describes the scene, the players declare actions, and the GM determines the success of those actions, either through fiat or mechanics (forgive the bluntness, I love 5e, but it's full of GM fiat). If the GM is forcing outcomes on the players it's almost always not following this play loop, hence the GM is ignoring the core play rules of the game. GM Force is strongly encouraged by Rule Zero. Rule Zero is a force multiplier for Force (heh). They aren't orthogonal at all, but rather strongly correlated. Games that have Rule Zero also often are very friendly to GM Force techniques. Again, I love 5e, and, when I play it, GM Force is a tool in my box. It's not inherently bad -- many players enjoy a bit of Force, especially Illusionism, because it provides a fun play experience where there are fewer demands on the players (the GM is using Force to create a fun game instead of leaning on the players to help). Being aware of it will improve your play in that you're now making more informed and critical choices in what tools you bring to bear on a situation. You don't have to make sure that what it is you like to do isn't Force, because it being Force doesn't make it bad (unless you hate Force, of course). It's helpful to be open to understanding that the default mode of play for modern D&D is GM Force, what that is, how it works, and how you use it. It's just a tool. [/QUOTE]

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