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"Illusionism" and "GM force" in RPGing
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7920617" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>The OP provides an example of Force in the context of the choreographed novel. That's not the full definition of Force, and I happen to know that the OP is fully aware and has previously discussed other applications, so it's a bit presumptuous of you to limit the definition of a term to that which supports your argument and claim the OP did it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not expanded, it's the definition of Force, regardless of the OP's choice of example. And, if you don't wish to discuss it, why are you continuing, here?</p><p></p><p></p><p>Seriously, "stuck in my craw?" Could you have chosen a less antagonistic phrasing to describe what you perceive as a critical element of my disagreement with you and [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]? </p><p></p><p></p><p>No, the bit you quote was in response to your claim that:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As such, it's clearly not a strawman because it doesn't apply to the bit your applying it to. If any strawman exists, it's yours, but I'd rather call this a misattribution or brief confusion of arguments. </p><p></p><p>And, absolutely I stand by my statement. If the GM is forcing a "given storyline or sequence of events in game" the only way to do this is to violate the core gameplay loop of 'describe, act, adjudicate'. One of those is being altered or ignored for the GM to be able to Force an outcome. It's unavoidable. You cannot have a macro change without changes at the micro level.</p><p></p><p></p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p></p><p>Force is NOT BAD in an of itself. I wish I could make it more clear that Force isn't an automatic negative, nor does it lead to bad play, or bad results. Like any tool, it can be abused, but that's up to the specific application. Naming something Force doesn't put a stink on it, it acknowledges what's occurring in the play. I use Force when I run 5e, unabashedly, even. I absolutely do NOT use Force in Blades in the Dark. But, these are different games, and I play them for different reasons, so it makes sense that I change the tools I use when I run them. Force isn't Teh Badness, it's a tool. Please stop having feeling you have to defend from the definition because you think it's a slight on your methods of play. It's not, it's a codification of a technique.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7920617, member: 16814"] The OP provides an example of Force in the context of the choreographed novel. That's not the full definition of Force, and I happen to know that the OP is fully aware and has previously discussed other applications, so it's a bit presumptuous of you to limit the definition of a term to that which supports your argument and claim the OP did it. It's not expanded, it's the definition of Force, regardless of the OP's choice of example. And, if you don't wish to discuss it, why are you continuing, here? Seriously, "stuck in my craw?" Could you have chosen a less antagonistic phrasing to describe what you perceive as a critical element of my disagreement with you and [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER]? No, the bit you quote was in response to your claim that: As such, it's clearly not a strawman because it doesn't apply to the bit your applying it to. If any strawman exists, it's yours, but I'd rather call this a misattribution or brief confusion of arguments. And, absolutely I stand by my statement. If the GM is forcing a "given storyline or sequence of events in game" the only way to do this is to violate the core gameplay loop of 'describe, act, adjudicate'. One of those is being altered or ignored for the GM to be able to Force an outcome. It's unavoidable. You cannot have a macro change without changes at the micro level. [HR][/HR] Force is NOT BAD in an of itself. I wish I could make it more clear that Force isn't an automatic negative, nor does it lead to bad play, or bad results. Like any tool, it can be abused, but that's up to the specific application. Naming something Force doesn't put a stink on it, it acknowledges what's occurring in the play. I use Force when I run 5e, unabashedly, even. I absolutely do NOT use Force in Blades in the Dark. But, these are different games, and I play them for different reasons, so it makes sense that I change the tools I use when I run them. Force isn't Teh Badness, it's a tool. Please stop having feeling you have to defend from the definition because you think it's a slight on your methods of play. It's not, it's a codification of a technique. [/QUOTE]
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