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"Illusionism" and "GM force" in RPGing
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7922271" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I think I already posted that, to me, the dungeon example is like Gygax's secret door example except less likely to be illusionistic (because as [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER] presents it there is no pretend/ignored check). (EDIT: apparently I didn't actually post that post - see further below).</p><p></p><p>Upthread I said of the secret door example:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px"></p><p></p><p>I haven't changed my mind on that since posting it. The GM making something salient in this way is a type of guiding but (as I elaborate upon below) is barely so.</p><p></p><p>The <em>dungeon </em>parallel to wandering monsters chasing the PCs through the secret door would be the (first?) DL module where the dragon armies chase the PCs to Pax Tharsis (sp? right name?). That is force, and more than barely so. Depending on context and details it may or not be illusionism.</p><p></p><p>I say <em>more than barely so </em>because it is clear manipulation, with the intention of driving particular action declarations ("We go this way"). I will leave it up to [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] to explain how it counts as force under his description of that phenomenon (I'm pretty confident that he will characterise it as force).</p><p></p><p>That's not what is intended. Force comes in degrees, both for literal physical forces and more metaphoric/analogous GM decision-making forces.</p><p></p><p>When I say <em>barely force </em>I mean that the degree of guidance or manipulation is very small. The discussion just above illustrates the point: saying "Here's a thing you're welcome to check out" is not really manipulation, and is about the smallest amount of guidance that can be given while giving any at all. Whereas "Here comes the dragon army - the only escape route is that way!" is strong guidance, and manipulation also: it is intended to allow room for only one viable action declaration, namely, W<em>e go that way.</em></p><p></p><p>I don't think this is the right analysis of what Gygax describes.</p><p></p><p>Wandering monsters aren't an element of action resolution. They're what [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] has called a "clock", which is (as best I know) a piece of PbtA terminology.</p><p></p><p>In Gygax's D&D the function of the clock is to punish poor decision-making (ie unskilled play) - wasting time or making noise - by extra pointless encounters which either suck rations or treasure or spells to avoid, or suck hit points and/or spells to defeat. If the players play well and don't dither, and the passage of time is purely due to their efficient travel from the dungeon entrance to the part of the dungeon they have prepared to tackle next (and this is exactly the scenario that Gygax describes on p 9 of his DMG) then the clock <em>isn't doing its job</em> if the party gets hit unrelentingly by wandering monsters. That becomes arbitrary punishment.</p><p></p><p>In Apocalypse World, Vincent Baker says the following about managing clocks (p 143):</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Countdown clocks are both descriptive and prescriptive. Descriptive: when something you’ve listed happens, advance the clock to that point. Prescriptive: when you advance the clock otherwise, it causes the things you’ve listed. Furthermore, countdown clocks can be derailed: when something happens that changes circumstances so that the countdown no longer makes sense, just scribble it out.</p><p></p><p>Gygax's advice about wandering monsters is about keeping the descriptive and prescriptive aspects of the "clock" in synch. I don't think it's presented as clearly - either in the core mechanic or in this advice around it - as Baker does for AW, but I think we can still make reasonable sense of what Gygax is saying</p><p></p><p>Now if Gygax had a "say 'yes'" element to his game, he wouldn't need this workaround for his wandering monster rules, because you wouldn't start rolling for them until the PCs have gone through the already-mapped-and-explored bits of the dungeon to the new bit they want to check out. But he doesn't (and to some extent didn't want to - see [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s comments about the secondary, simulationst role of wandering monsters as dungeon ecology).</p><p></p><p>This goes to [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s point about making the game better - sure, that's good advice, but sometimes the product just needs to be shipped! So we get 4e's skill challenge rules which need a few extra bells-and-whistles to really work (some are in the DMG2, some in the Rules Compendium). We get the MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic Doom Pool, which is pacing, GM resource for action resolution, and the opposition for otherwise unopposed checks (including most healing/recovery actions) all in one, and the wonkiness that can produce which produces the advice that the GM should sometimes not optimise his/her doom pool rolls.</p><p></p><p>Done in accordance with the relevant principles and these workarounds won't stop being clunky, but I don't think they count as force - they're not manipulating or guiding towards a predetermined outcome.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: Here's the post I wrote earlier about the dungeon example - apparently it didn't go live:</p><p></p><p>This seems very similar to Gygax's example of the secret door that I posted and commented on upthread.</p><p></p><p>If one takes the view that it's force (if so, it's very weak as the guidance/manipulation is pretty minimal) in the case you mention it's not illusionism: the players know exactly what the GM is doing! (Gygax's example may be illusionism if the players don't realise that the detect-secret-doors-roll was toyed with by the GM.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7922271, member: 42582"] I think I already posted that, to me, the dungeon example is like Gygax's secret door example except less likely to be illusionistic (because as [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER] presents it there is no pretend/ignored check). (EDIT: apparently I didn't actually post that post - see further below). Upthread I said of the secret door example: [indent][/indent] I haven't changed my mind on that since posting it. The GM making something salient in this way is a type of guiding but (as I elaborate upon below) is barely so. The [I]dungeon [/I]parallel to wandering monsters chasing the PCs through the secret door would be the (first?) DL module where the dragon armies chase the PCs to Pax Tharsis (sp? right name?). That is force, and more than barely so. Depending on context and details it may or not be illusionism. I say [I]more than barely so [/I]because it is clear manipulation, with the intention of driving particular action declarations ("We go this way"). I will leave it up to [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] to explain how it counts as force under his description of that phenomenon (I'm pretty confident that he will characterise it as force). That's not what is intended. Force comes in degrees, both for literal physical forces and more metaphoric/analogous GM decision-making forces. When I say [I]barely force [/I]I mean that the degree of guidance or manipulation is very small. The discussion just above illustrates the point: saying "Here's a thing you're welcome to check out" is not really manipulation, and is about the smallest amount of guidance that can be given while giving any at all. Whereas "Here comes the dragon army - the only escape route is that way!" is strong guidance, and manipulation also: it is intended to allow room for only one viable action declaration, namely, W[I]e go that way.[/I] I don't think this is the right analysis of what Gygax describes. Wandering monsters aren't an element of action resolution. They're what [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER] has called a "clock", which is (as best I know) a piece of PbtA terminology. In Gygax's D&D the function of the clock is to punish poor decision-making (ie unskilled play) - wasting time or making noise - by extra pointless encounters which either suck rations or treasure or spells to avoid, or suck hit points and/or spells to defeat. If the players play well and don't dither, and the passage of time is purely due to their efficient travel from the dungeon entrance to the part of the dungeon they have prepared to tackle next (and this is exactly the scenario that Gygax describes on p 9 of his DMG) then the clock [I]isn't doing its job[/I] if the party gets hit unrelentingly by wandering monsters. That becomes arbitrary punishment. In Apocalypse World, Vincent Baker says the following about managing clocks (p 143): [indent]Countdown clocks are both descriptive and prescriptive. Descriptive: when something you’ve listed happens, advance the clock to that point. Prescriptive: when you advance the clock otherwise, it causes the things you’ve listed. Furthermore, countdown clocks can be derailed: when something happens that changes circumstances so that the countdown no longer makes sense, just scribble it out.[/indent] Gygax's advice about wandering monsters is about keeping the descriptive and prescriptive aspects of the "clock" in synch. I don't think it's presented as clearly - either in the core mechanic or in this advice around it - as Baker does for AW, but I think we can still make reasonable sense of what Gygax is saying Now if Gygax had a "say 'yes'" element to his game, he wouldn't need this workaround for his wandering monster rules, because you wouldn't start rolling for them until the PCs have gone through the already-mapped-and-explored bits of the dungeon to the new bit they want to check out. But he doesn't (and to some extent didn't want to - see [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s comments about the secondary, simulationst role of wandering monsters as dungeon ecology). This goes to [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s point about making the game better - sure, that's good advice, but sometimes the product just needs to be shipped! So we get 4e's skill challenge rules which need a few extra bells-and-whistles to really work (some are in the DMG2, some in the Rules Compendium). We get the MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic Doom Pool, which is pacing, GM resource for action resolution, and the opposition for otherwise unopposed checks (including most healing/recovery actions) all in one, and the wonkiness that can produce which produces the advice that the GM should sometimes not optimise his/her doom pool rolls. Done in accordance with the relevant principles and these workarounds won't stop being clunky, but I don't think they count as force - they're not manipulating or guiding towards a predetermined outcome. EDIT: Here's the post I wrote earlier about the dungeon example - apparently it didn't go live: This seems very similar to Gygax's example of the secret door that I posted and commented on upthread. If one takes the view that it's force (if so, it's very weak as the guidance/manipulation is pretty minimal) in the case you mention it's not illusionism: the players know exactly what the GM is doing! (Gygax's example may be illusionism if the players don't realise that the detect-secret-doors-roll was toyed with by the GM.) [/QUOTE]
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