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"Illusionism" and "GM force" in RPGing
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7923040" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>I'm not sure that your definition of Force is useful, and I think this example shows it. You've focused your definition on some long term goal -- the creation of a "choreographed novel" -- and that's fine, but that makes it only useful in the macro and blurs the lines between content introduction, as [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER] presents, and actual direction of play. I think, applied fairly, it says nothing at all about the Gygax example* of choosing to ignore mechanically mandated content introduction. That's too small to be caught by the definition.</p><p></p><p>But, that's really the problem I have with it -- what counts as a "choreographed novel?" In this thread, you seem to be taking the tack that any presentation of material with an expectation that it will feature in play fits, but I think that's not a very good definition of "choreographed novel". It may fit the "choreographed" part, but not the "novel" part. The novel part says, to me, that the story and outcomes are <em>authored</em>. If I introduce a dungeon, and even make that the only option for play, I may have choreographed play into that dungeon, but if I let that dungeon play out as per the player inputs, and don't put my thumb on the scale for outcomes, then there's no way that's <em>authored</em>.</p><p></p><p>So, if we can separate "choreographed" from "novel" in the definition, and apply the terms independently to evaluate play, does this severing save the construction? I'd say no, because there's no clear line between how much authoring rises to the level of "novel." If I ignore a wandering monster check that's mechanically required by the rules, but only occasionally, does this level of authoring no encounter rise to the level of "novel?" I think you answer this above with no, or barely. That's fair. But, how many things do I need to author like this to achieve a substantial level? Unclear, and, ultimately, subjective. This makes the definition subjective, and, alongside already having to consider both choreography and authorship, I think not a very useful heuristic for judging play except at the "pornography" level, which is "I know it when I see it." At that point, as another poster presented, it's not any different from just saying "railroading."</p><p></p><p>I think a definition, like [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s, that evaluates moments in play is more useful. We can still consider if such use is good or not, but it clearly categorizes the moment in play as Force or not Force. We can still even reach your heuristic as sustained Force for the purpose of creating the GM's preferred story outcomes, rather than the in the moment resolution.</p><p></p><p>* As an aside, I don't understand why you've made the argument that the Gygax wandering monster example may be exempt from consideration of Force because it's not part of an action resolution. Firstly, because your definition makes no differentiation between action resolution and any other facet of the game, merely alluding to guidance, but also because I do see the wandering monster check as part of resolution, at a larger scale than an individual action. Wandering monster checks mechanically occur when the play has passed a trigger point, which only occurs according to player input -- ie, if they take to long, they get a wandering monster check. If the party takes too long, but you forgo a check because it seems unfair to you in the moment due to the party condition, then you're ignoring the mechanical resolution of a player input of taking too long. I don't see how you sever wandering monster checks at set trigger points from the input of the players choosing to cross that trigger point through play.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7923040, member: 16814"] I'm not sure that your definition of Force is useful, and I think this example shows it. You've focused your definition on some long term goal -- the creation of a "choreographed novel" -- and that's fine, but that makes it only useful in the macro and blurs the lines between content introduction, as [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER] presents, and actual direction of play. I think, applied fairly, it says nothing at all about the Gygax example* of choosing to ignore mechanically mandated content introduction. That's too small to be caught by the definition. But, that's really the problem I have with it -- what counts as a "choreographed novel?" In this thread, you seem to be taking the tack that any presentation of material with an expectation that it will feature in play fits, but I think that's not a very good definition of "choreographed novel". It may fit the "choreographed" part, but not the "novel" part. The novel part says, to me, that the story and outcomes are [I]authored[/I]. If I introduce a dungeon, and even make that the only option for play, I may have choreographed play into that dungeon, but if I let that dungeon play out as per the player inputs, and don't put my thumb on the scale for outcomes, then there's no way that's [I]authored[/I]. So, if we can separate "choreographed" from "novel" in the definition, and apply the terms independently to evaluate play, does this severing save the construction? I'd say no, because there's no clear line between how much authoring rises to the level of "novel." If I ignore a wandering monster check that's mechanically required by the rules, but only occasionally, does this level of authoring no encounter rise to the level of "novel?" I think you answer this above with no, or barely. That's fair. But, how many things do I need to author like this to achieve a substantial level? Unclear, and, ultimately, subjective. This makes the definition subjective, and, alongside already having to consider both choreography and authorship, I think not a very useful heuristic for judging play except at the "pornography" level, which is "I know it when I see it." At that point, as another poster presented, it's not any different from just saying "railroading." I think a definition, like [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER]'s, that evaluates moments in play is more useful. We can still consider if such use is good or not, but it clearly categorizes the moment in play as Force or not Force. We can still even reach your heuristic as sustained Force for the purpose of creating the GM's preferred story outcomes, rather than the in the moment resolution. * As an aside, I don't understand why you've made the argument that the Gygax wandering monster example may be exempt from consideration of Force because it's not part of an action resolution. Firstly, because your definition makes no differentiation between action resolution and any other facet of the game, merely alluding to guidance, but also because I do see the wandering monster check as part of resolution, at a larger scale than an individual action. Wandering monster checks mechanically occur when the play has passed a trigger point, which only occurs according to player input -- ie, if they take to long, they get a wandering monster check. If the party takes too long, but you forgo a check because it seems unfair to you in the moment due to the party condition, then you're ignoring the mechanical resolution of a player input of taking too long. I don't see how you sever wandering monster checks at set trigger points from the input of the players choosing to cross that trigger point through play. [/QUOTE]
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