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"Illusionism" and "GM force" in RPGing
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7923668" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>I disagree with this formulation. The "guidance" you speak of is hard to separate from legitimate content introduction. The only this you have here is 'foreordained conclusion'. This is a hard sell, as if I have an idea the night before a game of Blades that I think might be neat, and an opportunity arises in game that fits, if I deploy that using my authority to frame I'm not engaged in guidance to a foreordained conclusion, I'm introducing an idea I may have though earlier. You've blurred this by suggesting that [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER]'s introduction of a dungeon by letting players find out about it's existence is this kind of guidance. But, the GM has the authority to create dungeons in many games, and giving players the option to explore it doesn't seem like guidance, it seems like giving, I don't know, an option. This can't be Force, or all of D&D is force, including Gygaxian play.</p><p></p><p>In other words, unless I'm negating previous player input I don't see how Force can be applied in framing unless the definition of Force is meant to include all games where framing isn't 100% centered on the characters. The GM is as much a player and entitled to introduce themes they find interesting, so long as they don't override the players while doing so. </p><p></p><p>The Gygax secret door example appears to be Force in my opinion because it's subverting the player input in a skilled game to reach a GM desired outcome. The idea in skilled play, as I understand it, is that you deploy character resources in a skilled way and you succeed through how you deploy those resources. In that play concept, subverting the skill input of the players is Force. It's not a framing issue, because finding secret doors is not a matter of framing in this mode of play. You've moved something that should be an outcome of skilled play into framing, and that's what's resulting in Force -- the negation of player input in finding the secret door according to the assumptions of play.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm with [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER], here. If the decision to forgo wandering monster checks is player facing, it's fine. If it's not, then doing so is Force according to the mode of play expected. You've modified the player inputs into how they want to avoid wandering monsters in a skilled way by deciding there are none when the players expect there to be some.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7923668, member: 16814"] I disagree with this formulation. The "guidance" you speak of is hard to separate from legitimate content introduction. The only this you have here is 'foreordained conclusion'. This is a hard sell, as if I have an idea the night before a game of Blades that I think might be neat, and an opportunity arises in game that fits, if I deploy that using my authority to frame I'm not engaged in guidance to a foreordained conclusion, I'm introducing an idea I may have though earlier. You've blurred this by suggesting that [USER=6795602]@FrogReaver[/USER]'s introduction of a dungeon by letting players find out about it's existence is this kind of guidance. But, the GM has the authority to create dungeons in many games, and giving players the option to explore it doesn't seem like guidance, it seems like giving, I don't know, an option. This can't be Force, or all of D&D is force, including Gygaxian play. In other words, unless I'm negating previous player input I don't see how Force can be applied in framing unless the definition of Force is meant to include all games where framing isn't 100% centered on the characters. The GM is as much a player and entitled to introduce themes they find interesting, so long as they don't override the players while doing so. The Gygax secret door example appears to be Force in my opinion because it's subverting the player input in a skilled game to reach a GM desired outcome. The idea in skilled play, as I understand it, is that you deploy character resources in a skilled way and you succeed through how you deploy those resources. In that play concept, subverting the skill input of the players is Force. It's not a framing issue, because finding secret doors is not a matter of framing in this mode of play. You've moved something that should be an outcome of skilled play into framing, and that's what's resulting in Force -- the negation of player input in finding the secret door according to the assumptions of play. I'm with [USER=6696971]@Manbearcat[/USER], here. If the decision to forgo wandering monster checks is player facing, it's fine. If it's not, then doing so is Force according to the mode of play expected. You've modified the player inputs into how they want to avoid wandering monsters in a skilled way by deciding there are none when the players expect there to be some. [/QUOTE]
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