Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
"Illusionism" and "GM force" in RPGing
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7941107" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Thanks for finding this and posting it Doug.</p><p></p><p>My thoughts:</p><p></p><p>1) People naturally change over the course of their lives. As long as your somewhat intellectually honest and humble, the corrective process of life should at least have you reflecting upon, if not revising, ideas you stood by in the past. </p><p></p><p>2) It seems to me what we're seeing here is a bit of a moving along a continuum from 1e onward. And honestly, I think its a product of (a) Gygax realizing the problem with the resolution mechanics of AD&D and (b) not seeing a path forward toward revisions or an outright new iteration that would yield a more functional, challenge-based-gaming-friendly ruleset.</p><p></p><p>This progressive move (in the span of 10 years?) toward "use bubble-gum and paper clips during play (meaning Force) to patch over the suspect parts (action resolution mechanics interactions) of the ruleset which lead to outcomes that are antithetical to authentic challenge-based-gaming priorities (eg "earned" results aren't en emergent property of merely playing the game)" is (IMO) completely incompatible with both (a) challenge-based gaming priorities in the first place and (b) design curiosity and rigor.</p><p></p><p>It seems so weird for Gygax (the godfather of challenge-based TTRPGing) to put out an ethos that is incompatible with (a) and (b).</p><p></p><p>The answer is simple:</p><p></p><p>1) Go back to the design drawing board and revise/iterate upon the problems of the ruleset that are leading to the 1st order or 2nd order undesirable effects.</p><p></p><p>2) Have an adult conversation with your players when these moments of play strike and decide, collectively, how you want to revise the gamestate to a prior state (before the wonky ruleset screwed up the emergence of "earned" outcomes from challenge-based-priorities.</p><p></p><p>I wonder how Gygax would feel about a game like Blades (and its Forged in the Dark derivatives) and Torchbearer. They're both so profoundly beyond his AD&D in terms of "earned" outcomes and interesting, challenging decision-points from a challenge-based-priority perspective. Given my contention of (2b) above, I'm left wondering if he would gawk or if he would be incredulous.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7941107, member: 6696971"] Thanks for finding this and posting it Doug. My thoughts: 1) People naturally change over the course of their lives. As long as your somewhat intellectually honest and humble, the corrective process of life should at least have you reflecting upon, if not revising, ideas you stood by in the past. 2) It seems to me what we're seeing here is a bit of a moving along a continuum from 1e onward. And honestly, I think its a product of (a) Gygax realizing the problem with the resolution mechanics of AD&D and (b) not seeing a path forward toward revisions or an outright new iteration that would yield a more functional, challenge-based-gaming-friendly ruleset. This progressive move (in the span of 10 years?) toward "use bubble-gum and paper clips during play (meaning Force) to patch over the suspect parts (action resolution mechanics interactions) of the ruleset which lead to outcomes that are antithetical to authentic challenge-based-gaming priorities (eg "earned" results aren't en emergent property of merely playing the game)" is (IMO) completely incompatible with both (a) challenge-based gaming priorities in the first place and (b) design curiosity and rigor. It seems so weird for Gygax (the godfather of challenge-based TTRPGing) to put out an ethos that is incompatible with (a) and (b). The answer is simple: 1) Go back to the design drawing board and revise/iterate upon the problems of the ruleset that are leading to the 1st order or 2nd order undesirable effects. 2) Have an adult conversation with your players when these moments of play strike and decide, collectively, how you want to revise the gamestate to a prior state (before the wonky ruleset screwed up the emergence of "earned" outcomes from challenge-based-priorities. I wonder how Gygax would feel about a game like Blades (and its Forged in the Dark derivatives) and Torchbearer. They're both so profoundly beyond his AD&D in terms of "earned" outcomes and interesting, challenging decision-points from a challenge-based-priority perspective. Given my contention of (2b) above, I'm left wondering if he would gawk or if he would be incredulous. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
"Illusionism" and "GM force" in RPGing
Top