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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8449280" data-attributes="member: 16814">This is a common platitude, but provides no real input on how that can be achieved.  There are many approaches and even games out there that do different things and it's useful to talk about how they work and potential issues each may have.  Using Force and Illusionism may result in a good game, no doubt, but talking about them, how they work, and things that have gone wrong for people is valuable and not at all captured in the platitude of 'whatever's fun.'Like, if pacing is important to your table, and the players are really wanting to have an exciting game with a strong story, then Illusionism is a very strong tool for this.  If players was a game like what [USER=6670763]@Yora[/USER] offers, then Force is something that you should avoid.  The reasons for this is that Force lets the GM control the pacing and plot of a story, keeping it on track and moving smoothly by quickly eliding bits that don't matter and reinforcing the game at appropriate points to make them exciting.  On the other hand, if you really want a game were you as a player are marshalling your resources and using careful planning to overcome challenges and expect the GM to be neutral in adjudication (well, as neutral as possible), then the idea that the GM is moving things around to make them more exciting is absolutely something you're not going to want.  And I've kept this entirely within D&D as a game.  If you step outside D&D, the landscape gets bigger.  There are games where it's impossible for a GM to use Illusionism, and Force is verboten entirely.  Others where the system turns all uses Force (except the most flagrant) into Illusionism by hiding all resolution methods from the players so they just could not tell (usually "trust the GM" gets deployed here).  The discussion of how games play, and how things work, and where and how you might use tools is valuable, and not at all covered under 'whatever's fun.'Sorry for picking you out for the rant.</blockquote>

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