Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lonely Tylenol" data-source="post: 1931252" data-attributes="member: 18549">So, what exactly does this mean?  Let's say Mitch the fighter is fighting two orcs in a narrow hallway, one of which is an illusion (for argument's sake, it includes all sensory aspects available).  The real orc hits him with an axe, doing some damage.  He swats the real orc, and it dies.  Moving up, he swats at the fake orc, and fails his saving throw (he's interacted with it).  The illusionist is hiding somewhere, orchestrating the illusionary orc.  He (as mentioned in the spell description) makes the fake orc look like he was hurt.  A little.  The orc swings back at him, and clumsily misses.Mitch fights on.  He whacks and whacks at the orc.  It seems as though the orc is just really darn tough, because he's not going down.  Mysteriously, the orc rolls with the blows so that it never quite feels as though Mitch is making contact with his weapon.  Of course, the orc is not landing any solid blows either.  Finally, another party member calls out "he's an illusion!"  Mitch tries to make his save again, and fails.So, what happens?  Mitch still sees an orc there, and it still seems really real.  But he knows it's not real.  But he failed his saving throw to disbelieve.  What are his options?  Can he just walk through the illusionary orc?  Can he bring himself to let down his guard long enough to try it, since he still perceives the orc to be real?  Does he, somewhere in the back of his mind think, "of course it's not an illusion, I can see/smell/hear/feel it!"  He has no "proof" that it's an illusion, since he hasn't seen anything too weird happen yet.  His mind is not clouded, but it's still probably hard to accept that the very real seeming orc can't actually hurt him, and he could just walk through it, especially since he faced another just seconds ago that did hurt him.  How is this situation supposed to be arbitrated?Does "it's an illusion" automatically render everyone able to operate as though there were no illusion there, regardless of their saving throws?  For that matter, if all illusion spells require a saving throw in order to "disbelieve," why does it matter whether the illusion includes scent, sound, or thermal aspects.  Even if it doesn't feel like the orc is getting struck when you strike him, if you fail your save, you don't perceive anything amiss.  According to the rules, you don't notice it's an illusion unless you make your save, even if the illusion lacks verisilimitude in this fashion.  A Minor Image orc seems as real as a Major Image orc, so long as your Will save is terrible.There's no indication as to what it means to be fooled by the illusion.  Since you can fall for an illusionary orc that's essentially a silent cardboard cutout, and not "notice that something is amiss," there seems to be something more going on with these illusion spells than just a magical picture of an orc.  I'd notice if I were attacked by a silent orc that not only couldn't hit me with his axe, but also didn't feel like anything when I hit him with mine.  Will save aside, that screams "illusion."  But Mitch can't make that mental leap, because he failed his save, so he doesn't notice anything at all odd about the orc.  If another person walks through the orc, suddenly Mitch doesn't need to make a save after all, since he now has proof that it's an illusion.  But until that event, Mitch's belief in the orc is unshakable.I'd really like to see some kind of further guidelines or fleshing-out of the illusion rules to cover what happens to someone who just can't seem to make his saving throw, no matter how obvious the illusion is.  If nobody had cried out "it's an illusion," Mitch could have stood there fighting that orc forever, since he never would have noticed that something fishy was going on, according to the rules.  And what's the functional difference between a Major Image and a Heightened Minor Image, if they're both equally as likely to fool Mitch the fighter?</blockquote>

Verification