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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Zaruthustran" data-source="post: 1263725" data-attributes="member: 1457">Hi, I'll repeat this part from my SRD quote above. It's important:"Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.)"Figments are images. They're not mind-influencing effects at all. Think of them like holograms, like from the various Star Trek shows.If someone believes an illusion is real and hits it (no quotes needed for "hit", since the AC of a figment is 10 + size modifier)  then they get either a save (because they interacted with it) or the DM can rule that hitting an illusion with a melee weapon simply counts as proof that it isn't real.The kind of illusion you seem to be talking about, where the subject's mind works to reinforce the illusion, is something like a phantasm, or glamer, or pattern. Very different from a figment. Illusionary wall is great. It works for the same reason that pointing an unloaded gun at someone and yelling "FREEZE!" works just as well as pointing a loaded a gun at someone and yelling "FREEZE!". The subject believes in something that is false, and adjusts behavior: the subject sees a wall, and so walks right by the branch in the corridor covered by the illusion / the subject believes he will be shot, and so puts his arms up in response to the unloaded gun.To continue: if the subject puts his arm right through the illusionary wall, he'll have a pretty good idea that it's fake / if the gunman pulls the trigger and the unloaded gun merely goes "click", the held up person has a pretty good idea that the gun is unloaded.I mean, what other way could you adjudicate a figment? The fake wall does not exist, and figments are not mind-affecting spells.The type of "super high level illusion" is critically important. If it's a figment then yes, the kid that threw the stone would get a will save at least (an impossibly high will save, but a will save). Those who merely are observing (and not interacting) would not get a save at all, unless maybe if they made Spot checks to notice the stone going right through the dragon.But, yeah, if an illusionist (even the most powerful one in the world) makes a figment of a dragon, and then observers of the that figment are presented with proof that it's not real (like if, say, a guard tower or avalanche topples right through the figment) then no save is needed. It's clear the dragon is fake. (again, smart illusionists make figments of incorporeal creatures).Read the SRD or PHB section on illusions and this will all be clear. Here's a link:<a href="http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicOverview.rtf" target="_blank">http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicOverview.rtf</a>-z</blockquote>

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