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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 496991" data-attributes="member: 3146">If my PC starts getting hammered by rogues, his first action is to reach into his backpack for that Obscuring Mist scroll. By the time PCs have +5d6 sneak attacks (9th level) and improved invisibility (7th level), the enemies ought to have some way of dealing it. Barbarian or rogue levels, darkness, mist, displacement, Fortification Armor, Blink, Invisibility Purge, See Invisibility, True Seeing, or simply being construct, elemental, or undead.Sneak attacking rogue archers can be effective, but shouldn't destroy all encounters. There is a wide variety of ways for intelligent foes to deal with sneak attacks and invisibility by that point and many unintelligent foes are immune to them.Well part of the issue here is that your character was an elven fighter. High dex, low con. Of course you're going to be a better archer than melee fighter. Make the character a half-orc, dwarf, or human, and things change a little.Really though, I don't think you're right about the comparison. If GMW (a 3rd or 4th level spell) is automatically included in the archer comparisons, the melee fighter should be able to assume buffs as well.Taking a really simple example:Elf Ftr 8: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 12 PBS, PS, RS, WF: comp longbow, WS: comp longbow, Imp Crit: comp longbow, Bracers of Archery, +1 Flaming bow, clvl 8 GMW on arrows Atk +16/+16/+11 (1d8+10+1d6) Avg 19/hitElf Ftr 12: As above, clvl 12 GMW, +2 Flaming bow Atk +23/+23/+18/+13 (1d8+13+1d6) Avg 22/hitHalf-orc Ftr 8: Str 18 (20), Dex 12, Con 14, WF Greataxe, WS Greataxe, Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Imp Crit: Greataxe, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, +1 Corrosive Greataxe, Haste SpellAtk +17 (haste partial charge)/+15/+10 & cleaves (1d12+9+1d6) avg. 19/hitHalf-orc Ftr 12: As above but Str (21) +2 Frost greataxe, Blindfight, Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician, Power CriticalAtk +22 (haste partial charge)/+20/+15/+10 (and cleaves) (1d12+10+1d6 avg 20/hit)On the face of it, it looks like the melee fighter is a bit behind in damage dealing. But there are three other factors: the melee character has several other options for more attacks. He has great cleave which enables him to get an indeterminate number of extra attacks if he faces multiple weak foes. He also has expert tactician which enables hit to attack again (at his highest attack bonus) against any foe without their dex bonus. If he rolls well for intiative, is improved invisible, or has a comrade cast darkness on him (sure, he can't see but his opponents can't either and therefore lose their dex bonus--expert tactician kicks in and he can use Blindfight for added advantage), this is better than rapid shot. The melee character can also trade in unneeded attack bonus for damage with power attack. The melee character can also use power critical for an automatic critical threat. Used on the partial charge with power attack 2, that will yield an average of 59 points of damage (3d12+36+1d6).But the comparison still plays to the archer's strengths. The melee character would get a lot of milage out of multiclassing to barbarian--even if only for one level (and then taking the extra rage feat). That would punch his attack bonusses and damages significantly higher--defeating the archer in either contest.Stopping the long range archer isn't an issue. Since bracers of archery, weapon specialization, and sneak attack all only work within 30 feet, the archer's damage goes down dramatically at long range. The 30' range archer is still quite defeatable (anything that cuts off line of sight works--fog, darkness, etc--and the archer is within charge and sunder (or power critical) range). The Shoot on the Run 45' range (move to 30', fire, move back) archer is a bit harder to deal with but not much.Archers contribute to a party, but even with the stacking enhancement bonusses, they shouldn't dominate a well-constructed melee character.</blockquote>

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