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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Petrosian" data-source="post: 502504" data-attributes="member: 1149">[/B]</blockquote>None, not any at all. The penalties are severe, but not one feat is necessary.For the archer, the second shot is IMPOSSIBLE without the additional feats.And after those two feats you have an extra attack at -2 and the possibility (if using identical light weapons of have foc/spec add +1/+2.And the net effect is obne extra attack, -2 penalties, and within 30' a +1/+1. this raises to +2/+3.To me, the fact that for two feats the archer gains the ability to make the extra attack at all, penalties of -2, and an additional +1/+1 is important and significant. They are not to be ignored so that we pretend he gains the same thing for two feats as the AMBI/TWF guy does.YMMV and obviously does.If you want to drag class abilities into it, thats cool but it wont affect the comparison at all. No matter how you slice it, a flat out beneficial feat, giving +1/+1 within 30' is not at all gonna balance out taking two feats for the effect of one. Maybe in your game the +1/+1 for PBS is worthless enough that it doesn't matter at all. thats fine.I think in many games, and i know in mine, +1/+1 within 30' is considered very worthwhile.Matter of fact, i have even heard of campaigns, as strange as this may sound to you, where people spend TWO feats to get a net +1/+2 with weapons that only works within 5', like say someone who takes focus and spec on their greatsword. If you cannot fathom +1/+1 within 30' counting as beneficial or worth a feat on its own, i shudder to think of what you appraise focus and spec at for a melee weapon.Me, i see it much more simply...It takes two feats to go from "extra mnelle attack with extreme penalties" to "extra melee attack with -2 penalties" with everything else staying the same and no additional benefits.It should take at least two feats to go from "NO extra ranged attack at all, period" to "one extra ranged attack with -2 penalties" and no other changes whatsoever.Thats not how the rules currently stand and from my experience that is a significant part of the imbalance or "archery edge" i have seen in play.It really seems quite simple. enjoy your games.[/QUOTE]

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