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<blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 508130" data-attributes="member: 1363">A different perspectiveOk, I didn't sort through all six pages of posts, but I get the gist...1) &quot;Archers&quot; are more powerful than other fighters, especially those specialized in &quot;melee&quot; combat.2) &quot;Archers&quot; deal the most damage in combat.3) GMW shouldn't stack with arrow and bow.Several others have asserted:4) Archers must contend with concealment, cover, and attacks of opportunity.5) Specific tactics (used by NPC's) can help to reduce the effectiveness of archers (although some feats and prestige class abilites help to negate these penalties).&nbsp; Ok.&nbsp; Here's my 2 cents on the &quot;issues&quot; from the thread.1.&nbsp; Archers are NOT more powerful than other fighters, because...what's stopping the fighter from pulling out his bow too?&nbsp; Why is this different from the sorcerer, standing next to the archer, casting two Firebrand Spells (5th, MoF)on everyone of the villians the second he walks into the room?&nbsp; Getting a full attack action vs. a partial action is a HUGE difference.&nbsp; Thus, the need for the POUNCE special ability, from Singh Rager in OA.&nbsp; I would even argue this should be a &quot;high end&quot; feat above Spring Attack on that feat chain.&nbsp; In this regard, other fighters can be equally effective (give or take some special abilites) as archers AND go whip up in melee.&nbsp; Sweet.2. Archers can dish it, no doubt.&nbsp; So can a melee Scimitar/Khopesh wielding Weaponmaster with a Vorpal Sword.&nbsp; You ever seen a Vorpal Whirlwind attack?&nbsp; You don't want to. How about a frenzied berserker power attacking?&nbsp; Overall, an archer's damage isn't significantly higher once we take out the &quot;full attack&quot; vs. &quot;partial action&quot; issues.&nbsp; Keep in mind that there are limitations on the strength bonus to damage that an archer will receive.&nbsp; This is a significant difference!3).&nbsp; GMW should stack.&nbsp; What!?!?!&nbsp; Sacrilege!&nbsp; Heathen!&nbsp; Here's why:a) Offset Range Penaltiesb) Offset Concealment Penaltiesc) Offset Cover Penaltiesd) Offset limitations placed on strength damage from bows.Please note, that whatever book put power attack in as a prestige class abilities for archers must have been PLAYTESTING: OPTIONAL.&nbsp; This was abundantly obvious to our whole group the first minute someone used a bow.&nbsp; This should get rule-0'd, or at a minimum, cap the PA bonus to 5 to keep it reasonable.&nbsp; Yikes.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ashockney, post: 508130, member: 1363"] [b]A different perspective[/b] Ok, I didn't sort through all six pages of posts, but I get the gist... 1) "Archers" are more powerful than other fighters, especially those specialized in "melee" combat. 2) "Archers" deal the most damage in combat. 3) GMW shouldn't stack with arrow and bow. Several others have asserted: 4) Archers must contend with concealment, cover, and attacks of opportunity. 5) Specific tactics (used by NPC's) can help to reduce the effectiveness of archers (although some feats and prestige class abilites help to negate these penalties). Ok. Here's my 2 cents on the "issues" from the thread. 1. Archers are NOT more powerful than other fighters, because...what's stopping the fighter from pulling out his bow too? Why is this different from the sorcerer, standing next to the archer, casting two Firebrand Spells (5th, MoF)on everyone of the villians the second he walks into the room? Getting a full attack action vs. a partial action is a HUGE difference. Thus, the need for the POUNCE special ability, from Singh Rager in OA. I would even argue this should be a "high end" feat above Spring Attack on that feat chain. In this regard, other fighters can be equally effective (give or take some special abilites) as archers AND go whip up in melee. Sweet. 2. Archers can dish it, no doubt. So can a melee Scimitar/Khopesh wielding Weaponmaster with a Vorpal Sword. You ever seen a Vorpal Whirlwind attack? You don't want to. How about a frenzied berserker power attacking? Overall, an archer's damage isn't significantly higher once we take out the "full attack" vs. "partial action" issues. Keep in mind that there are limitations on the strength bonus to damage that an archer will receive. This is a significant difference! 3). GMW should stack. What!?!?! Sacrilege! Heathen! Here's why: a) Offset Range Penalties b) Offset Concealment Penalties c) Offset Cover Penalties d) Offset limitations placed on strength damage from bows. Please note, that whatever book put power attack in as a prestige class abilities for archers must have been PLAYTESTING: OPTIONAL. This was abundantly obvious to our whole group the first minute someone used a bow. This should get rule-0'd, or at a minimum, cap the PA bonus to 5 to keep it reasonable. Yikes. [/QUOTE]

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