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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5453120" data-attributes="member: 87792">Some formulae are much easier to solve than others.&nbsp; And if you don't think that formulae with subtractions and negative numbers are harder to solve than ones with positive numbers, all I can say is that you both don't have a good grounding in either number theory or fundamental areas of computer science, and haven't tried to teach young kids to do math.Having just re-read the NWP section of the 2e PHB to remind myself (and the implicit implication that if something needs a NWP to do, if you don't have it you can't) and the thief skills, all I can say is not very.Separate 3e from 4e there please?&nbsp; And then 4e from 4e Essentials*.&nbsp; Because a low level Slayer is inherently only very slightly more complex than your 2e &quot;Just hit stuff&quot; fighter (yes, it changes when you hit Paragon tier - or Lord + Retainer level in 2e), and that's more than made up for by even just the sub-systems the player had to know in 2e (hell, I'd argue that THAC0 was annoying enough that that was enough).&nbsp; Yes, you are right about 3e (assuming no Players Option books in play - I'm restricting to just PHBs (or Essentials)).&nbsp; But I believe you have outlined a fundamental problem with 3e - that they simplified the ruleset then decided to load back in the exptra complexity.* I wonder if Essentials is the only expansion in any version of D&amp;D to make the game easier for newbies if it's used.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5453120, member: 87792"] Some formulae are much easier to solve than others. And if you don't think that formulae with subtractions and negative numbers are harder to solve than ones with positive numbers, all I can say is that you both don't have a good grounding in either number theory or fundamental areas of computer science, and haven't tried to teach young kids to do math. Having just re-read the NWP section of the 2e PHB to remind myself (and the implicit implication that if something needs a NWP to do, if you don't have it you [I]can't[/I]) and the thief skills, all I can say is not very. Separate 3e from 4e there please? And then 4e from 4e Essentials*. Because a low level Slayer is inherently only very slightly more complex than your 2e "Just hit stuff" fighter (yes, it changes when you hit Paragon tier - or Lord + Retainer level in 2e), and that's more than made up for by even just the sub-systems the player had to know in 2e (hell, I'd argue that THAC0 was [I]annoying[/I] enough that that was enough). Yes, you are right about 3e (assuming no Players Option books in play - I'm restricting to just PHBs (or Essentials)). But I believe you have outlined a fundamental problem with 3e - that they simplified the ruleset then decided to load back in the exptra complexity. * I wonder if Essentials is the only expansion in any version of D&D to make the game easier for newbies if it's used. [/QUOTE]

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