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Message: <blockquote data-quote="nnms" data-source="post: 5793757" data-attributes="member: 83293">There are basically two criticisms that one can level against investigation rules sets and if you solve for one, you open yourself up to the other.  Gumshoe tries to avoid both pitfalls.The first is:  This game falls apart if you fail a roll and don't get a clue you need to solve the mystery.The second is:  This game automatically gives you the clue so player skill doesn't matter.Gumshue tries to solve the first without falling into the second.  You won't ever fail a skill roll related to an investigation skill in which you are proficient.  You don't even roll.It solves the second by still keeping play within its normal narrative referencing structure.  The keeper/gm describes the situation, the players describe what their characters are doing and the system is referenced as needed to resolve thing.Never once have I ever heard about any Gumshoe play where players have actually answered the GM's description by starting to list off their investigation skills.  You would have to intentionally abandon the procedures of play in order to do this.  If a player does this at the table, they are not playing the game.  You reference the system by describing your actions, not by calling out system references.In your paragraph above, you claim Gumshoe doesn't solve the first problem because it doesn't also fall victim to the second.  For some reason, you've decided that the goal of the system is guaranteed player success in the investigation.  That's not it at all.  This is due to the players still needing to decide how they are investigating and what they are doing with the information.  Player skill is present even if characters always automatically succeed at their professional tasks.Neither their adventure building advice nor their published modules depend on the players getting all the information without any use of their own skill as players in an investigation game.  Gumshoe is not about removing the investigation game so you automatically succeed at it.It's about making sure you don't miss information because a randomizer says you don't get it.  Why does it do this?  Precisely to target player skill as the focus of the game.If you (automatically) find a piece of paper with a Dewey Decimal reference number and (authomatically) know it's a library reference number but then you as a player decide to never check the library shelves, that is not the Gumshoe system failing you.</blockquote>

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