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<blockquote data-quote="Journeymanmage" data-source="post: 5209096" data-attributes="member: 63814">Was not my intention to start an &quot;editions war&quot;, but I would like to make a few comments.In response to Iron Sky's comment and the OP: Yes, in many ways it is better.&nbsp; &nbsp; a.&nbsp; It's more balanced, across classes, across roles.&nbsp; And keeps that balance from Heroic to Paragon.&nbsp; (No direct experience with Epic so no opinion).&nbsp; b.&nbsp; A few bad rolls are significantly less likely to cause issues for the player/party.&nbsp; Low level casters don't die in 1 or 2 hits [1st level wizard (d4 hp) vs kobold spear (d6-1)]&nbsp; c.&nbsp; There are a lot of good instructs/guiding info to what creatures to use, how to use them, how to make things more challenging without completely mauling players.&nbsp; &nbsp; d. I think the game is more ... solid on may levels and more balanced, especially for newer players.&nbsp; &nbsp; e. ** Healing ** now someone in the group, usually one of the last people to join, doesn't feel obligated to play the near obligatory Cleric who's job it is to spend every round casting a healing spell.&nbsp; Or the DM doesn't need to add a NPC healer.To Samir and in part the OP:I've read this forum for several years, been a member for over 2 years.&nbsp; I've haven't posted (or don't recall posting) my opinion about 4th ed. before now.&nbsp; I have a science/tech background, I want more than 1 set of data points before I give an opinion.&nbsp; Unlike many people, I decided NOT to do the &quot;OMG WTF BBQ&quot; type of posts people saw during the first 6 months.&nbsp; I've done the &quot;wait and see how it plays out&quot; and listened to other players experiences.&nbsp; I'm happy to see many people like the game.&nbsp; To the OP:- 4th Ed. seems to be a well thought out game.&nbsp; &nbsp; - As above: It's balanced. &nbsp; - A lot of grey areas have been cleaned up.&nbsp; &nbsp; - A lot of difficult mechanics have been simplified or removed.&nbsp; - Many things that break or circumnavigate plots/plans were also changed or removed.&nbsp; (&quot;Scry and Fry&quot; or &quot;We fly/teleport over/past x,y,z&quot; plot-lines/encounters)&nbsp; I've seen the 'crest-fallen' look on 2 GM/DM's faces when I pointed out that we could fly past x wall or forest ... and a party-member could just teleport us back to z location.&nbsp; (oops, by-passing major plot encounter(s)).&nbsp; Not that easy to do in 4th Ed..Is 4th Ed. a good game, IMO, yes.But to me, on several levels, it doesn't feel like previous editions, which I miss.&nbsp; (Note, our groups usually avoided &quot;Rat + Bag Tricks&quot;.&nbsp; We never did the &quot;Scry and Fry&quot; and we never had the power creep of adding 3 prestige classes, sorry pick &gt;1&lt;, if you want to, and enjoy). &gt;tldr:&nbsp; Summary:4th Ed. is better balanced and the rules are clearer.&nbsp; More forgiving for Players (GM/PCs).&nbsp; Less &quot;swingy&quot;.&nbsp; And healing rules are kinder for the players.&nbsp; 4th Ed. Default PoL Low to Mid. Fantasy, Low to Mid. Level Magic.&nbsp; Grey + Gritty reality.4th Ed. also feels, rules/play-wise more restricted.Pre-4th Ed. comments:Felt like: High Fantasy, High Magic (at low levels 6th-9th).&nbsp; Good/bad, your call.&nbsp; /tldrgeneral comments:I liked fly, teleport, cure poison/disease, etc. as 1 action, but I also I think the 4th Ed. Ritual system is good, in general.I miss the &quot;asking the Rogue&quot; to find out which part of a failing city needs the most help, and then sneaking past guards and &quot;bad guy guilds&quot; to go heal / cure the commoners at NO Charge.&nbsp; Yes you can still do that, but sneaking in and burning out all your Cure spells and a wand or two in the name of the &quot;Good Guys&quot; with no expectation of reward feels better than sneaking in and doing 20 Healing rolls.&nbsp; I like the PoL grey and gritty, I played in 2 different LARP campaigns for over 3 years each.But I'm not sorry 50 charge 6d6 Fireball wands are gone ... that much fire-power (no pun intended) was insane.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Journeymanmage, post: 5209096, member: 63814"] Was not my intention to start an "editions war", but I would like to make a few comments. In response to Iron Sky's comment and the OP: Yes, in many ways it is better. a. It's more balanced, across classes, across roles. And keeps that balance from Heroic to Paragon. (No direct experience with Epic so no opinion). b. A few bad rolls are significantly less likely to cause issues for the player/party. Low level casters don't die in 1 or 2 hits [1st level wizard (d4 hp) vs kobold spear (d6-1)] c. There are a lot of good instructs/guiding info to what creatures to use, how to use them, how to make things more challenging without completely mauling players. d. I think the game is more ... solid on may levels and more balanced, especially for newer players. e. [B]** Healing **[/B] now someone in the group, usually one of the last people to join, doesn't feel obligated to play the near obligatory Cleric who's job it is to spend every round casting a healing spell. Or the DM doesn't need to add a NPC healer. [B]To Samir and in part the OP[/B]: I've read this forum for several years, been a member for over 2 years. I've haven't posted (or don't recall posting) my opinion about 4th ed. before now. I have a science/tech background, I want more than 1 set of data points before I give an opinion. [B]Unlike many people, I decided NOT to do the "OMG WTF BBQ" type of posts people saw during the first 6 months. [/B] I've done the "wait and see how it plays out" and listened to other players experiences. I'm happy to see many people like the game. To the OP: - 4th Ed. seems to be a well thought out game. - As above: It's balanced. - A lot of grey areas have been cleaned up. - A lot of difficult mechanics have been simplified or removed. - Many things that break or circumnavigate plots/plans were also changed or removed. ("Scry and Fry" or "We fly/teleport over/past x,y,z" plot-lines/encounters) I've seen the 'crest-fallen' look on 2 GM/DM's faces when I pointed out that we could fly past x wall or forest ... and a party-member could just teleport us back to z location. (oops, by-passing major plot encounter(s)). Not that easy to do in 4th Ed.. Is 4th Ed. a good game, IMO, yes. But to me, on several levels, it doesn't feel like previous editions, which I miss. (Note, our groups usually avoided "Rat + Bag Tricks". We never did the "Scry and Fry" and we never had the power creep of adding 3 prestige classes, sorry pick >1<, if you want to, and enjoy). [B]>tldr: [/B]Summary: 4th Ed. is better balanced and the rules are clearer. More forgiving for Players (GM/PCs). Less "swingy". And healing rules are kinder for the players. 4th Ed. Default PoL Low to Mid. Fantasy, Low to Mid. Level Magic. Grey + Gritty reality. 4th Ed. also feels, rules/play-wise more restricted. Pre-4th Ed. comments: Felt like: High Fantasy, High Magic (at low levels 6th-9th). Good/bad, your call. [B]/tldr[/B] general comments: I liked fly, teleport, cure poison/disease, etc. as 1 action, but I also I think the 4th Ed. Ritual system is good, in general. I miss the "asking the Rogue" to find out which part of a failing city needs the most help, and then sneaking past guards and "bad guy guilds" to go heal / cure the commoners at NO Charge. Yes you can still do that, but sneaking in and burning out all your Cure spells and a wand or two in the name of the "Good Guys" with no expectation of reward feels better than sneaking in and doing 20 Healing rolls. I like the PoL grey and gritty, I played in 2 different LARP campaigns for over 3 years each. But I'm not sorry 50 charge 6d6 Fireball wands are gone ... that much fire-power (no pun intended) was insane. [/QUOTE]

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