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<blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 8046003" data-attributes="member: 6788736">My issue with PF (and its 3.5 source) is the real game itself isnt the Roleplaying game itself.Char-Op and System mastery is the game. If you dont play the Char-Op/ System mastery game in 3.P you're screwed.Everyone needs to be on the same level of System mastery, or else you wind up with a (disappointing and underwhelming) Monk, played alongside an actual 'Monk' (Sacred Fist Warpriest with Pounce abilities, dipping in a few other classes, certain feats, traits etc) that does what you wanted to do with your PC, just 10 times better.Anyone who's ever played either game, and had a table with a Human Fighter, next to a Ruby Knight Vindicator/ Warblade/ Crusader with Divine metamagic/ Persistent spells, spamming martial manouvers with Wraithstrike, or a simple CODzilla etc has seen this phenomenon clearly.3.P requires equal levels of System mastery from everyone at the table, to know what trap options there are (and there are literally thousands of them) what feats/ PrCs/ combos work (from among literally thousands more options) and to make sure everyone is on roughly the same playing field.5E lacks those trap options, and doesnt require any System mastery to create a perfectly viable character to adventure with other characters of the same level, regardless of the years of your life you've spent trawling through a billion splatbooks/ feats/ traits/ alternate class features/ PrCs and slapping together 'builds' etc etc.I used to love that system mastery/ char-op element to 3.P. Now I cant stand it. It basically WAS the game after a point, and we all forgot what DnD actually was meant to be somewhere in the middle of all that nonsense.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Flamestrike, post: 8046003, member: 6788736"] My issue with PF (and its 3.5 source) is the [I]real [/I]game itself isnt the Roleplaying game itself. Char-Op and System mastery is the game. If you dont play the Char-Op/ System mastery game in 3.P you're screwed. Everyone needs to be on the same level of System mastery, or else you wind up with a (disappointing and underwhelming) Monk, played alongside an actual 'Monk' (Sacred Fist Warpriest with Pounce abilities, dipping in a few other classes, certain feats, traits etc) that does what you wanted to do with your PC, just 10 times better. Anyone who's ever played either game, and had a table with a Human Fighter, next to a Ruby Knight Vindicator/ Warblade/ Crusader with Divine metamagic/ Persistent spells, spamming martial manouvers with Wraithstrike, or a simple CODzilla etc has seen this phenomenon clearly. 3.P requires equal levels of System mastery from everyone at the table, to know what trap options there are (and there are literally thousands of them) what feats/ PrCs/ combos work (from among literally thousands more options) and to make sure everyone is on roughly the same playing field. 5E lacks those trap options, and doesnt require any System mastery to create a perfectly viable character to adventure with other characters of the same level, regardless of the years of your life you've spent trawling through a billion splatbooks/ feats/ traits/ alternate class features/ PrCs and slapping together 'builds' etc etc. I used to love that system mastery/ char-op element to 3.P. Now I cant stand it. It basically WAS the game after a point, and we all forgot what DnD actually was meant to be somewhere in the middle of all that nonsense. [/QUOTE]

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