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Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion
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<blockquote data-quote="Alzrius" data-source="post: 4125599" data-attributes="member: 8461"><p>I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to try and answer some of these. I'm the editor for the book, so the onus for this partially falls on me. I can't answer everything, but I'll try to answer what I can.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: Oi gevalt. This was so massive I had to split it up into <em>three</em> posts! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're right about this one.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't think it's unclear at all. Gaining experience and gaining quintessence are two different things. You can be an epic-level mortal without any quintessence, and you can likewise be an immortal with a lot of quintessence and few Hit Dice (though the divinity templates themselves have minimum HD limits, so that effect is partially mitigated until they do gain enough HD). Deities that don't have much HD would probably be killed by competitors pretty soon anyway.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't believe you can turn the various abilities on/off unless it specifically says you can.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The SRD lays down that supernatural abilities always take a standard action (no AoO) unless they specifically say otherwise.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I assume U_K did this on purpose, to make divine abilities a bit harder to resist. I didn't have a problem with it, myself.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't find the placement to be an issue, myself. It's there if people are looking for it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Good point, that probably should be changed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Right, good catch there too.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Size categories don't count for ECL, under this system. They have relatively balancing capabilities (ability bonuses and penalties, attack/AC bonuses and penalties, etc.), and there's plenty of abilities and effects that can change a creature's size anyway. As for the base size of an immortal you create, it can be any size you want it to be, though the upper-tier divinity templates require a certain minimum size.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>They multiply everything that grants permanent hit points (such as Con bonus, Toughness, etc).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Whoops, yeah, that's probably right.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're right that the first paragraph under Table 3-2 mistakenly calls it Table 3-3. That said, you kind of trailed off in the middle of a sentence here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I disagree with the assessment given here. Table 3-2 gives a portfolio's total projected ECL adjustment, and takes into account things such as portfolio weaknesses, spell-like abilities and domain powers, and other aspects of a portfolio that aren't strictly divine abilities. For example, and intermediate deity with a single portfolio gains +8 ECL worth of abilities, and -3 ECL worth of weaknesses, for a net gain of +5 ECL. Table 3-3 says it'd have +11 equivalent divine abilities, but the text says that's a closer projection than the approximations in the previous table.</p><p></p><p>Admittedly, there is some disconnect between the two tables, and the four bullet points in the upper-right part of the page. Presumably, though, Table 3-2 and the bullet points are generalities, and Table 3-3 is a closer examination.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Presumably so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This one largely seems to be GM fiat. You could say, for example, that it only applies to a sexual encounter with a member of the opposite sex. On the other hand, you could say that it applies to any type of sexual contact you have with any creature.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's Wisdom Realm Hazards, and it's exactly what it sounds like. A creature's speed (that is, feet moved during a single move action) is now measured by their wisdom modifier. The wiser you are, the faster you are. That seems apropos.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that some clarification there would be helpful. As written, I think they assign a penalty, but don't reduce your actual BAB when used (since that'd screw with things like iterative attacks and such).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Page 99 actually. That said, what do you mean "virtual AC"? You make an attack roll (with a -15 penalty) and if you hit, the Tarrasque would make a Fort save (DC equals your attack roll) and if it fails, away it goes. No further attack roll is required - the text even says that you could knock someone into the sun with that.</p><p></p><p>Don't forget to make that the Tarrasque would have to make a Reflex save or be knocked prone! <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Another oopsie there. Yeah, that should be changed, though I don't know if it'd need to necessarily be only as part of a full attack.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Good point, there's no measurement formula for distance here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The only limit is how many feats a deity can take.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Grin and bear it. U_K is pun-ishing us all. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Things shot with this feat do lethal damage, not nonlethal (it hasn't been "subdual" damage since 3.0). You can indeed shoot a two-handed weapon.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Page 105 there. I believe that this should apply only to weapons that are finessable, but this one is ultimately U_K's call.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Presumably, this is equal to the total amount of attacks a target can make on a (theoretical) single full attack action, as judged on the turn when the missiles are fired at him. For example, a 20th-level monk has five attacks per round, counting their flurry ability, and so could only deflect five missiles from someone with Legendary Archer. If <em>hastened</em>, that monk would have six attacks per round on a full attack, and so could deflect only a maximum of six missiles per round against someone with this feat.</p><p></p><p>Obviously, the Quicken Attack metamartial maneuver should not be taken into account when judging this.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hm, that does end in the middle of a sentence, doesn't it? U_K, some help here!</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Presumably, this falls under GM fiat. But your way is a nice solution.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It says Charisma penalty, so you essentially have a penalty applied to your Charisma score while diseased. Theoretically this is open to abuse, but so are most combinations, and as far as that goes, this would be a minor abuse, since you can only use one disease at a time like this.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Strength modifier does apply to damage rolls for thrown weapons and composite longbows, but otherwise you're right. That should be changed to simply being a -5 penalty to attack and damage rolls. I'm less confident about changing the size categories based on the attacking creature's size category, though. Larger weapons will do greater damage, and so will naturally go further anyway, since they can stand to have more of their damage reduced by the penalty per creature shot through.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It says "as part of <strong><u>a</u></strong> cleave attempt" (emphasis mine). Hence, when you make multiple cleave attempts via Great Cleave (which is a prerequisite), this feat would apply.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There is no "each attack"; a whirlwind attack is a single attack roll, made against every opponent you threaten. This lets you take a single step while doing that, so you count every opponent you threaten in the spaces before and after your step.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This feat (along with Timely Dodge, Uncanny Charge, Vigorous Rage, and any others without the epic tag) should all have the epic tag after them. Every feat in this section is an epic feat.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You're right about the wording needing to be cleaned up here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It also benefits characters that make melee attacks. If you make more attacks, however you make them, then it benefits you more. Fighting with multiple attacks is just one way to raise your attacks per round (another way is to just use Quicken Attack over and over).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Good catch here.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There's nothing here that specifically says that the target's alignment affects the damage that this effect deals, so it's reasonable to say that that has nothing to do with it. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I believe that the way this should work is that it creates a single effect whose power is the combination of the two deities' effects. This may not seem like much of an improvement, but it helps to overcome things like high level resistances (as opposed to immunities), natural damage dice caps, etc. There's no reason that I can see to assume that, if each deity has Convergent Effect, it's somehow greater. Specifying that you must spend an action to improve another deity's effect might be worthwhile, though.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>True that. That should be changed.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Hm, a good point here. Animal companions gain greater power when their master is at epic levels (though the cap on the dragon's HD will apply to effectively limit that), but there should be a note about that there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I believe the intent here is that you select a feat, and until you select a different one, that's the feat that any and every ally within your divine aura gains. When you decide to change the feat, everyone already within, and who later enters, your divine aura now has that feat instead. Also, you must already have the feat, so questions of it applying to you are moot (that said, if it's a stackable feat, such as AMC, then it doesn't say it applies to you, so most likely it doesn't).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The prerequisites make it seem like this applies only to unarmed strikes, but as written it applies to all attacks that gain a Strength bonus to damage. In which case, figure out what your final Strength bonus to damage would be (from all other modifiers, such as if it's in your off-hand, etc.) and then double it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, but as written Perfect Weapon Focus requires Greater Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus, which only Fighters can take (otherwise forcing the monk deity to take Nescient, and then all of the prerequisite feats for Perfect Weapon Focus, which is a tad unfair).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The Cunning abilities grant circumstance bonuses, whereas the Intellectual abilities grant competence bonuses. The redundancy is intentional, since then you could take both abilities and grant two different sets of bonuses to the same stat (e.g. Cunning Body and Intellectual Body).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The preprequisites are that you're already undead, so you're still gaining more than you lose. While the vampire template does have quite a few weaknesses, this is still a net gain (particularly since a divine vampire will have more options than a standard one). Otherwise, I'd agree, but there's third-party things out there to increase the power of a vampire (through complementary templates, and age modifiers).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This might be a good idea. Though reasonable limits (e.g. an always active power that isn't visible can't be copied) should help curb this anyway.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't agree, simply because you can only duplicate this for "the round after having witnessed it in action." Duplicating a single ability score, no matter how high, for just one round won't tip the balance in your favor if you're THAT outmatched.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Flavor, I suppose, particularly since it has less marginally less prerequisites.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think this is supposed to be the type of damage dealt by speaking harshly, but you're right that it comes off as odd. Untyped damage might be better.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Alzrius, post: 4125599, member: 8461"] I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to try and answer some of these. I'm the editor for the book, so the onus for this partially falls on me. I can't answer everything, but I'll try to answer what I can. EDIT: Oi gevalt. This was so massive I had to split it up into [i]three[/i] posts! :eek: You're right about this one. I don't think it's unclear at all. Gaining experience and gaining quintessence are two different things. You can be an epic-level mortal without any quintessence, and you can likewise be an immortal with a lot of quintessence and few Hit Dice (though the divinity templates themselves have minimum HD limits, so that effect is partially mitigated until they do gain enough HD). Deities that don't have much HD would probably be killed by competitors pretty soon anyway. I don't believe you can turn the various abilities on/off unless it specifically says you can. The SRD lays down that supernatural abilities always take a standard action (no AoO) unless they specifically say otherwise. I assume U_K did this on purpose, to make divine abilities a bit harder to resist. I didn't have a problem with it, myself. I don't find the placement to be an issue, myself. It's there if people are looking for it. Good point, that probably should be changed. Right, good catch there too. Size categories don't count for ECL, under this system. They have relatively balancing capabilities (ability bonuses and penalties, attack/AC bonuses and penalties, etc.), and there's plenty of abilities and effects that can change a creature's size anyway. As for the base size of an immortal you create, it can be any size you want it to be, though the upper-tier divinity templates require a certain minimum size. They multiply everything that grants permanent hit points (such as Con bonus, Toughness, etc). Whoops, yeah, that's probably right. You're right that the first paragraph under Table 3-2 mistakenly calls it Table 3-3. That said, you kind of trailed off in the middle of a sentence here. I disagree with the assessment given here. Table 3-2 gives a portfolio's total projected ECL adjustment, and takes into account things such as portfolio weaknesses, spell-like abilities and domain powers, and other aspects of a portfolio that aren't strictly divine abilities. For example, and intermediate deity with a single portfolio gains +8 ECL worth of abilities, and -3 ECL worth of weaknesses, for a net gain of +5 ECL. Table 3-3 says it'd have +11 equivalent divine abilities, but the text says that's a closer projection than the approximations in the previous table. Admittedly, there is some disconnect between the two tables, and the four bullet points in the upper-right part of the page. Presumably, though, Table 3-2 and the bullet points are generalities, and Table 3-3 is a closer examination. Presumably so. This one largely seems to be GM fiat. You could say, for example, that it only applies to a sexual encounter with a member of the opposite sex. On the other hand, you could say that it applies to any type of sexual contact you have with any creature. It's Wisdom Realm Hazards, and it's exactly what it sounds like. A creature's speed (that is, feet moved during a single move action) is now measured by their wisdom modifier. The wiser you are, the faster you are. That seems apropos. I agree that some clarification there would be helpful. As written, I think they assign a penalty, but don't reduce your actual BAB when used (since that'd screw with things like iterative attacks and such). Page 99 actually. That said, what do you mean "virtual AC"? You make an attack roll (with a -15 penalty) and if you hit, the Tarrasque would make a Fort save (DC equals your attack roll) and if it fails, away it goes. No further attack roll is required - the text even says that you could knock someone into the sun with that. Don't forget to make that the Tarrasque would have to make a Reflex save or be knocked prone! :lol: Another oopsie there. Yeah, that should be changed, though I don't know if it'd need to necessarily be only as part of a full attack. Good point, there's no measurement formula for distance here. The only limit is how many feats a deity can take. Grin and bear it. U_K is pun-ishing us all. :p Things shot with this feat do lethal damage, not nonlethal (it hasn't been "subdual" damage since 3.0). You can indeed shoot a two-handed weapon. Page 105 there. I believe that this should apply only to weapons that are finessable, but this one is ultimately U_K's call. Presumably, this is equal to the total amount of attacks a target can make on a (theoretical) single full attack action, as judged on the turn when the missiles are fired at him. For example, a 20th-level monk has five attacks per round, counting their flurry ability, and so could only deflect five missiles from someone with Legendary Archer. If [i]hastened[/i], that monk would have six attacks per round on a full attack, and so could deflect only a maximum of six missiles per round against someone with this feat. Obviously, the Quicken Attack metamartial maneuver should not be taken into account when judging this. Hm, that does end in the middle of a sentence, doesn't it? U_K, some help here! Presumably, this falls under GM fiat. But your way is a nice solution. It says Charisma penalty, so you essentially have a penalty applied to your Charisma score while diseased. Theoretically this is open to abuse, but so are most combinations, and as far as that goes, this would be a minor abuse, since you can only use one disease at a time like this. The Strength modifier does apply to damage rolls for thrown weapons and composite longbows, but otherwise you're right. That should be changed to simply being a -5 penalty to attack and damage rolls. I'm less confident about changing the size categories based on the attacking creature's size category, though. Larger weapons will do greater damage, and so will naturally go further anyway, since they can stand to have more of their damage reduced by the penalty per creature shot through. It says "as part of [b][u]a[/u][/b] cleave attempt" (emphasis mine). Hence, when you make multiple cleave attempts via Great Cleave (which is a prerequisite), this feat would apply. There is no "each attack"; a whirlwind attack is a single attack roll, made against every opponent you threaten. This lets you take a single step while doing that, so you count every opponent you threaten in the spaces before and after your step. This feat (along with Timely Dodge, Uncanny Charge, Vigorous Rage, and any others without the epic tag) should all have the epic tag after them. Every feat in this section is an epic feat. You're right about the wording needing to be cleaned up here. It also benefits characters that make melee attacks. If you make more attacks, however you make them, then it benefits you more. Fighting with multiple attacks is just one way to raise your attacks per round (another way is to just use Quicken Attack over and over). Good catch here. There's nothing here that specifically says that the target's alignment affects the damage that this effect deals, so it's reasonable to say that that has nothing to do with it. I believe that the way this should work is that it creates a single effect whose power is the combination of the two deities' effects. This may not seem like much of an improvement, but it helps to overcome things like high level resistances (as opposed to immunities), natural damage dice caps, etc. There's no reason that I can see to assume that, if each deity has Convergent Effect, it's somehow greater. Specifying that you must spend an action to improve another deity's effect might be worthwhile, though. True that. That should be changed. Hm, a good point here. Animal companions gain greater power when their master is at epic levels (though the cap on the dragon's HD will apply to effectively limit that), but there should be a note about that there. I believe the intent here is that you select a feat, and until you select a different one, that's the feat that any and every ally within your divine aura gains. When you decide to change the feat, everyone already within, and who later enters, your divine aura now has that feat instead. Also, you must already have the feat, so questions of it applying to you are moot (that said, if it's a stackable feat, such as AMC, then it doesn't say it applies to you, so most likely it doesn't). The prerequisites make it seem like this applies only to unarmed strikes, but as written it applies to all attacks that gain a Strength bonus to damage. In which case, figure out what your final Strength bonus to damage would be (from all other modifiers, such as if it's in your off-hand, etc.) and then double it. Yes, but as written Perfect Weapon Focus requires Greater Weapon Focus and Epic Weapon Focus, which only Fighters can take (otherwise forcing the monk deity to take Nescient, and then all of the prerequisite feats for Perfect Weapon Focus, which is a tad unfair). The Cunning abilities grant circumstance bonuses, whereas the Intellectual abilities grant competence bonuses. The redundancy is intentional, since then you could take both abilities and grant two different sets of bonuses to the same stat (e.g. Cunning Body and Intellectual Body). The preprequisites are that you're already undead, so you're still gaining more than you lose. While the vampire template does have quite a few weaknesses, this is still a net gain (particularly since a divine vampire will have more options than a standard one). Otherwise, I'd agree, but there's third-party things out there to increase the power of a vampire (through complementary templates, and age modifiers). This might be a good idea. Though reasonable limits (e.g. an always active power that isn't visible can't be copied) should help curb this anyway. I don't agree, simply because you can only duplicate this for "the round after having witnessed it in action." Duplicating a single ability score, no matter how high, for just one round won't tip the balance in your favor if you're THAT outmatched. Flavor, I suppose, particularly since it has less marginally less prerequisites. I think this is supposed to be the type of damage dealt by speaking harshly, but you're right that it comes off as odd. Untyped damage might be better. [/QUOTE]
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