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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Eldorian" data-source="post: 781826" data-attributes="member: 10504">No, this is where you spout nonsense, and don't actually compare the characters...1st level fighter, 18 dex, chainshirt, large wooden shield, AC 20.5th level fighter, 10 dex, Full Plate, large steel shield, AC 20.  22 if both are magical (remember he has a finite buget for magic items)They look pretty even to me, maybe 5th level fighter with an advantage.  But remember the reduced mobility of heavy armor.Lets see.. fighter level 1, BAB +1, relavant ability score +4, total +5Fighter level 5, BAB +5, total +5.  Magic weapon may give him +6.This one I don't get.  Level 5 fighter will have weapon specialization.  So we're comaring 1d8+4 to 1d8+2, doesn't seem a doubling of damage to me.No!  The first level guy will have better PERIOD.  1st level fighter saves Fort +6, Ref +4, Wil +4. 5th level fighter with cloak +2 (almost half his money, you're gonna lose out on weapon and armor if you take a +2 cloak, but hey, you wanna be competitive)saves on level 5 base Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1.  Even given a +2 cloak, the saves are only 6, 3, 3, which are behind the level 1 in 2 saves!Not really!  He'll have at most an 11 in his casting stat, which means he casts level one spells at 5th level caster, but with save DCs 11.  The 1st level caster casts level 1 spells at 1st level caster but with save DCs 15.  Ya know, that's sick, but there is no major advantage here to the 5th level. Ability checks don't come into play?  Oh yah, I forgot, you don't use skill checks.Actually, the level 1 favors here.  The skills he puts 4 ranks into, compared to the skills the 5th level guy puts 8 ranks into, mean they both have a +8 total.  However, the skills they put no ranks into, the 1st level gets +4 over the 5th level's +0.  Also, the armorcheck penalty of our 5th level is 2 higher than the 1st level's, so all skills that get armor check penalty, like most of the fighter skills, the 1st level has an edge in.  As for your "too many factors"...  Do you panic when you see more than 2 factors for something?  You made this same arguement for save DCs and saving throws.Lets see.. 1st level fighter, 18 con, 14 HP.  5th level fighter 10 con, 32 Hp.  Just a bit more than double for our fighter.  I think UK was within his rights to claim 32 was approximatly 28.Only if his class abilities don't depend on his abilite scores to work, like spells, or paladin abilities, or feats (they have reqs..) or uncanny dodge or...  Looks like rangers, barbarians and rogues are the only ones with decent class abilities at 5th level.But this can't be a factor!  You've already factored it in to the ac, attack, and saves equations!!!  You don't get to factor it in more than once.. nice try.Really?!!?!  Hmm.. how much ya got, and how can I be sure you'll pay up?  Cause my fighter will run away and shoot you with his bow, until you die.  Considering his run speed is 120 and yours is 60.The fact remains that the system can't be perfect for all levels.  But, having said that, look at a level 10 fighter with 18s and a level 14 fighter with 10s.  I don't think it's 50/50 anymore, in fact, I give the level 10 the best odds.  More hp(59.5 + 40 vs 81.5), better saves, same attacks, more damage...  Better feats (he actually makes prereqs).And another problem with the 18s in all scores is that at least 2 scores don't mean anything to a fighter's ability to fight.  And you can throw out wisdom for ogre fights, ogres don't force will saves.  So it's not an acurate comparison for these two charcters, since the 18s all stats fighter is good against magic attacks, whereas the ogre only does physical attacks.Anyways, I got work to do.  I'm outieEldorian Antar</blockquote>

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