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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Anubis" data-source="post: 1386601" data-attributes="member: 2358">If you had any common sense, you certainly wouldn't have started making this nasty.I got three words for you: KISS MY ASS.Okay, do the following:1) Go back and read my posts again before making assumptions you moron.2) Read carefully the part where I explained these characters were rolled up using the standard normal method given in the book.3) Realize that the 4d6 rolling method is the standard way above any of the point buy methods.4) Slam your head against the wall as you realize you just proved my point. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> Thank you kindly.  These characters are supposedly "head and shoulders above all standard characters" (according to your warped logic that doesn't understand rolling ability scores), yet against the seven troglodyte zombies, they only achieve a TPK every single time.  THEY CAN'T WIN!  Do you understand now?  Let me say it slowing so that you might comprehend . . .I . . . claimed . . . ability . . . scores . . . should . . . not . . . count . . . because . . . it . . . overrates . . . PCs . . . and . . . eventually . . . bring . . . about . . . a . . . TPK . . .You just proved my point by saying how super my PCs (who were rolled with the method given in the PH and NONE of the variants I might add) are, especially once you factor in that seven of the supposedly weak troglodyte zombie can TPK them EASILY.  This wasn't PC error; they simply don't have enough power!  The EL of the troglodyte zombie is at least 3 off itself, and if we went with counting PC ability scores, the group would have been far larger!  Now if they can't fight seven, how the heck can they fight MORE?!  Easy . . . THEY CAN'T, PERIOD!Do you get it yet, monkey?If you gave troglodyte zombies a higher CR and then count my PCs' ability scores, the difference remains the same!  Remember, I didn't count the ability scores of PCs when I ran this combat, meaning the PCs' EL was LOWER and thus CLOSER to that of the zombies.  If you raise both, the difference remains the same!  Only by raising the zombies' EL and NOT counting the ability scores of PCs do you get the correct number.By the way, remember, this is part of and ACTUAL campaign, not testing.  That makes my results more valid than any of your test crapola.Here is my proof:My party CRs doing it his way are 4.3 (4), 3.8 (3.5), 3.3 (3), 3.9 (3.5); that makes them CR 14 and thus (with four members) EL 16-4=12.  Now let's raise the CR of the troglodyte zombies to 1.5 where it belongs.  Six troglodyte zombies are now CR 9 and thus (with six members) EL 13-5=8.  Hmmm . . . Six troglodyte zombies isn't much better than seven, yet this is supposedly a "moderate encounter", one that takes 25% of the party's resources . . . In actuality, this is still a freakin' TPK!Now let's not count ability scores for the PCs . . . The PCs are now CR 8 and thus (with four members) EL 13-4=9.  Now it's a "difficult encounter" and should use between 50% and 75% of the party's resources.  Hmmm . . . Still not exactly right, but much closer than before!  By the numbers, we can now say that, on average, a party should be able to win, but they'll have to rest and will probably lose a member in the process.Anyway, again, checkmate.  Can someone actually use REAL GAME EXAMPLES to prove me wrong?  I see lots of "oh PCs with all 18s or all 3s" retardation, but not even one realistic example that could actually happen in a game.  Anyone?  Heh . . . I didn't think so.Wulf Ratbane, go home, kid.  You're not in my league.Anyway, UK, I figured out a simple solution to the problem.  It may overrate some select monsters, but certain overrating monsters is better than UNDERrating them, ya?  Anyway, here it is:If the final CR is lower than the total CR from HD, use the total from HD instead and then round up instead of down for the final CR.  [Example: Troglodyte Zombie is CR .766 but has 1.4 CR from HD.  As such, we use the 1.4 and round up for a final CR 1.5, which coincides with the acceptable number.DMs could also use this as a "Bronze Rule" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /> on a case-by-case basis depending on whether or not they think it is warranted.Still, this does nothing to help things unless you AT LEAST stop counting AT LEAST the rolled ability scores of PCs.</blockquote>

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