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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sonofapreacherman" data-source="post: 1386941" data-attributes="member: 2315">Let me start this off properly.*Injects Anubis with twice his normal dosage of Ritalin.*There. With that out of the way, I can now safely say that Anubis is right. Ability scores should not count.I understand the logic of any argument that claims Upper_Krust's Challenge Rating system breaks down when applied to characters with all 3's or all 18's (and does not add in ability scores), but arguments like that ignore a few important points (which Anubis already mentioned).If these statistics are rolled naturally, they break the bell curve of normalcy, and as such are discarded from the experiment. Moreover, using the point buy system makes all 3's or all 18's impossible. Nothing will be lower than 8 and you can only create two 18's using the high-powered campaign set of points (leaving all other scores at 8).These are controlled standards by which character attributes are created and so they must be adopted by this experiment.In the end, -5 to +5 simply doesn't have that great an impact on a random d20 roll. It hurts or helps respectively, but -/+25% does not make or break the bank. Only when the characters become gods should their attributes start to matter, but even then, I believe that Upper_Krust has a different Challenge Ratings methodology.As for your template Wulf, you would count each one of those attribute bonuses. Any bonus that exceeds the basic racial bonuses. You would even count racial bonuses if their attributes modifiers did not add up to 0. That's it.But more important than all these points is something far more nebulous. Accuracy is slippery. It has plagued these Challenge Rating threads since the beginning. Despite continued efforts and dedication to create accuracy, there is always an occasion that busts it wide open. It's inevitable. Which tells me that some chaotic detail will always escape these threads *by design*. So rather than trying to quantify that chaotic detail, accept that it will always be there.Is the Challenge Rating system a waste of time? Hell no. Any effort that offers cold, unforgiving, mathematical figures to quantify a monster's Challenge Rating is an invaluable tool, even one with a random chaotic glitch.Does the revision stop? No. Keep trying to catch the glitch. But I think that adding attribute bonuses into the Challenge Rating equation was a misguided attempt to do so. I think it chased a ghost that really wasn't there, and only ended up complicating the system unnecessarily.</blockquote>

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