Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Enchanted Trinkets Complete--a hardcover book containing over 500 magic items for your D&D games!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="CRGreathouse" data-source="post: 1389354" data-attributes="member: 474">You know what?  It amuses me to respond to this post.Really, it doesn't need to be the exact same roll for Wulf's point to be valid.  All that's needed for it to work is that one player has to roll strictly better than another (best roll P1 >= best roll P2, 2nd-best roll P1 >= 2nd-best roll P2, ...) and the better rolling player has to have a higher total modifier.  In a group of 5, this seems pretty likely.  (I did 10 trial runs (4d6 drop low), and in each this happened with at last one pair.  I'd suppose the probability is over 95%.)While this wouldn't make for a whole level difference, it will make some difference -- a big one when stats are far apart.  I might make a better simulation that will count how far apart the best stats are from the worst to see how much of a modifier, on average, would be ignored by your method.  I'd guess it's around a +8 to +10 modifier...So why does your "Proof Positive" rest on a single matchup?In my mind, and in the minds of most posting on this thread, I'd wager, this is more an argument that a monster's CR is off than that ability scores don't matter... even among those who think ability scores aren't worth counting.I'd question that assertion, but it's not worth my time to prove it otherwise. The fighter with 14s could have, for example, +7 damage (Power Attack) at the same attack bonus and AC, since the other fighter needs a shield to make up for his lack of Dex.  He could instead have the same damage but +5 AC, or any number of other variations.  Changing killrange from 4 hits to 2 is major, and reducing hits from 50% to 25% is similarly important.No it isn't.  You could, for example, count 'luck' in rolling ability scores by making better ability scores count towards ECL/CR.If a character's highest rolled stat is 14, there's no potential to get a 22 with just a +4 racial bonus.  Since it's possible to track when the stat *can* go beyond 3-18, there's no reason to dismiss it as an impossiblity.You've shown one example where a monster you said was harder than it should have been without counting ability scores was too hard counting them.  U_K said that the monster was probably underrated.  Most people agree.Using the same example, I could make a case for any part of the system being 'broken', since anything that would drop the PCs ECL or raise the monster's CR would make the fight more even.  The example doesn't single out ability scores in any way.Sure they have.  One character's stats are 2 lower than another's across the board.  (This isn't unlikely with a normal-size group using the standard method, if you count this case and cases more extreme  It's happened in many gaves I've been in.)  That character takes a template granting +2 to all ability scores at the cost of +1.2 ECL.  The group, underpowered by the lower-leveled character, is promptly destroyed by _______.  [/tongue in cheek]One level is a big difference, especially at low levels.Frankly, though, I don't understand how you fail to see this.  I can think of lots of examples.  Consider the differences between, say, 3d6 and 6d6 drop lowest 3, or 15 point buy vs. 42.  I've seen serious debate about how much more powerful 32 point buy is than 28 point buy -- and you can't see the difference between any two stat methods?Heck, I played a game with 7-point buy characters.  Do you think the DM matched CR based on our level as though we used 32 points?You used *one* example to back this up, which in *no way* singles out ability scores as the root of the problem.  Everyone else agrees it's a fluke based on a likely-misrated monster.  You bring no additional proof to the table, while filling the thread with acrimonious ramblings.  Wulf, disgusted by your conduct, ignores you -- allowing you to claim his lack of posts as a victory.Well, believe what you must.  You certainly don't have to count ability scores in your game -- as Sorcica pointed out, it's often not worth the effort.</blockquote>

Verification