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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Anubis" data-source="post: 1389455" data-attributes="member: 2358">Before going on, I should point out that even when bumping up the CR of the monster in question to 1.5, counting the ability scores of PCs STILL results in a TPK.  I showed this to be true, as my party would have to face six troglodyte zombies for a "moderate 25% encounter" if the PCs' ability scores were counting.  Only by not counting PC ability scores did the norm actually get reduced to a managable two troglodyte zombies.Now then . . .Sorcica's point is actually even better than mine, even though it has no basis in balance.  Counting PC ability scores is truly annoying and nowhere near as simple as 1 Level = 1 CR.  On top of that, not counting ability scores gives us absolutely no balance problems.I'll add that all matters regarding counting PC ability scores occur at Levels 1-3 more than anything.  I make a big deal of this because those are absolutely critical levels during which PCs are at their most fragile, and at those levels, ability scores do almost nothing to make the PC less fragile.  At higher levels, it's hard to find any difference.I said I would give more examples if people asked for them.  No one asked, so I didn't take the time to write them out.  Just so you know, though, there are problems like this with all lower zombies, ghouls, goblins, and orcs, just to name a few.  All problems occur when you match up Level 1-2 parties with a larger number of lower CR creatures.  Of course this can be found at upper levels as well, but that is more of an argument against throwing large numbers of monsters at PCs.  (An occurance comes to mind where a party at Level 10 took on a virtual army of about 100 orcs.  I had to cheat some rolls to get the party through it alive; it really is true that a large enough number of anything can kill more powerful creatures.)Nonetheless, all my points have been shown clearly, and a few templates don't prove me wrong.  Sometimes caution and balance are more important than accuracy; this is one of those times.  I will never count PC ability scores and I would urge any wise DM to follow my lead.  Counting templates and even racial modifiers can work, but counting PC ability scores is simply a disaster waiting to happen.  Besides, as Sorcica said, it's just not worth the trouble; the trouble far outweighs the gain.  Since there is no loss of balance doing it the "quick" way of counting each character singularly at a Level/CR ratio, there is no need to take extra time to determine a party CR/EL (especially since XP isn't even determined like that anymore) and there is no need to use the ultra-complex method of determining EL for multiple creatures.Just do it the simple way and you get all the accuracy that's needed PLUS you don't risk killing your PCs AND you can follow the DMG method of giving XP.</blockquote>

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