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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Anubis" data-source="post: 1389475" data-attributes="member: 2358">Let ME set the record straight.  Aside from the "shoot down your little argument", which isn't an insult, the rest of that wasn't directed AT HIM.  The wording is pretty clear: "the DM's part", "gaming stupidity", etc.  It is stated in what I said that, plain and simple, the rules should not attempt to account for things the DM does out of stupidity such as give super stats to weaker creatures, hand out godlike templates for no reason, etc.  Basically, that statement directly affirms that I am against trying to make the system foolproof; doing so just mars everything.  Allowing a player to play with all 3s, allowing dice tricks that could give someone all 18s, and just handing out power are all things only a foolish DM does.  My next words directed AT him are "all of your examples are invalid" . . . which they were!  He talks about all 3s, all 18s, and other assorted things that simply do not happen in a normal game!  As I said, in my experience, a player usually rolls around 80 points of ability scores, oddly enough an average of 13-1/3 per score.  I don't care what "statistics" say, playtesting shows 13-1/3 to be the average roll using the 4d6 method.  Oh, and by the way . . .Over the course of rolling somewhere around a thousand or more characters using the traditional 4d6 method, I have almost never seen a substantial difference in ability scores.  Maybe about 5% of the time, but no more than that.  Of course your example happens, easily since you use ">=", meaning "better than or equal to".  You fail to mention how little a difference that makes, though.  By what you're saying, someone rolling 16, 15, 15, 15, 14, 14, 14 is substantially better than someone who rolls 16, 15, 15, 14, 14, 14, 10.  That just is not the case.  Depending on the class, it may not make any difference whatsoever!  (What is #1 is a monk and #2 is a fighter who puts that 10 in Charisma?  That means no substantial power difference at all!)  You also fail to recognize that some stats are "throwaway stats" to some classes, such as Charisma to fighters or Intelligence to barbarians or perhaps Strength to wizards or Dexterity to clerics.Which was the first attack, his toward me.Once he started it, the gloves came off.  Sorry, but I take no prisoners.  You insult me once, you get it constantly.Well many people here are seemingly to be increasingly not worth my time.  No one listens to logic or the fact that I've played things out.  No one has even given me one example where balance is lost.  Your little templates aren't an example of balance loss, it's accuracy loss.  Sorry, but I'll throw accuracy to the wind for caution and balance.  I like my PCs alive and I do not like a TPK because of a stupid mistake like that.By example, I mean give me a clear-cut example where not counting ability scores while using a normal party in the core rules (because everything else is subject to the possibility of the source itself being unbalanced, such as splatbooks or anything from those super character threads) leads to a balance issue.  You gotta use a party that would happen in a normal game against normal monsters, not just random things you throw together.  You see, THAT is my trump card.  I use a real normal game, I don't just hunt around for things.  If you can do the same and prove me wrong, do so.  If all you can do is throw random things together, don't waste my time.  The rules should be inteneded to balance CR/EL in standard games above all others, plain and simple.</blockquote>

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