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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Upper_Krust" data-source="post: 4377933" data-attributes="member: 326">Howdy paradox42 mate! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Its not debateable at all, its a cast iron fact. You only have to glance at the likes of the Book of Nine Swords classes (Warblade etc.) and my own Revised Classes on the website - in both cases martial classes needed significant boosts to bring them into even parity with spellcaster classes.The martial classes (in particular) were boring. They were basically one trick ponies - full attack.On the contrary, 4E has far more variety (amongst the classes) than 3E. You can't say that because ALL the classes now have dozens of different options both in and out of combat that the 3E 'variety' of only having some interesting classes with options and just as many without is superior - its completely illogical.Glad you like how 4E handles disease. I could swear I saw some power that is like a defacto Con drain in 4E (I threw in disease because I couldn't offhand remember the other powers name) - though it could just be one of the new conditions I'll be introducing into the game, so I'll refrain from mentioning it herein. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />...and therein lies the obvious problem with ability damage - it affects way too many things, which means it ridiculously slows down combat. Another indictment against ability damage - well spotted. Clouded thinking.Marking is a direct challenge, avoiding the mark is akin to 'losing face'. Hence the ties to charisma. I'm not trying to make anyone switch. Simply pointing out the irrationality of some of your claims.Some people are going to prefer 3E regardless...I get that. However, I just want to understand why that is, since as far as I can see 4E is clearly superior.So far up to now I can understand:1) It doesn't have unlimited progression. Worth pointing out neither did 3E until the ELH. Also I think unlimited progression ultimately proved a false dawn.2) 4E doesn't do as good a job at representing a 'real' fantasy world. I think that is correct, but the reasons for that are inherantly logical. 3) 4E 'epic' is not as 'epic' as 3E 'epic'. This brings up the question what is 'epic'. You could argue that 3E 'epic' was really no more 'epic' than 3E levels 16-20. Between 21-30 (in 3E) chances are you weren't going to have any epic items - because the wealth rules suggested you couldn't have any. So really you are talking about 3E 31+ epic. Its probably worth pointing out at this juncture how far detached your own 3E game is from the 3E rules.You hit the nail on the head. Artifacts are special. Making it so that every Tom, Richard and Harry can have a +7 flaming, frost, ghost touch, thundering, vorpal longsword means those things become de rigeur and thus commonplace and less than special.With the 3E Immortals Handbook I tried to get people to use fewer more iconic items, but I just see 4E as taking that a step further.As it should be.So what though? Just because it doesn't have every single option ever from day one doesn't invalidate the system. Unless you are saying the first two years of 3E were pointless since they didn't introduce Epic gaming until that far in?How is that any different from 3E where raising and resurrection were so commonplace that death was next to meaningless anyway. Except of course that they railroaded parties into having a cleric in 3E.Its death but with the caveat that they hardwired healing, raising and resurrection into the system from the beginning. Making it much more approachable and playable and not necessarily the providence of simply one class. The implication is that it means something greater than before. I think 4E epic has that, even if it doesn't mean the same things as 3E.Thanks. I'll try.What can't they bypass? Or do you mean bypass as easily?The term 'Epic' originated with 3rd Edition (Unless my 2E HLCS memory is foggy).But again you highlight the question "What is epic?". Most people would proffer the opinion that Lord of the Rings was indeed epic. They are relevant for the purpose of showing irrationality.I respect your opinion, even if I don't agree with your reasoning (or lack thereof) in some cases.</blockquote>

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