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<blockquote data-quote="Kerrick" data-source="post: 4699467" data-attributes="member: 4722">(New post for an unrelated topic <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> )In the course of revising the epic monsters, I started playing around with the size/HD ratio rules. That's really a topic for another thread (I'll be posting the revised monsters as I finish them), but I want to discuss some findings I made regarding VSCs.VSCs are a great invention, but their implementation is slightly flawed. UK, you didn't account for creatures with exceptional mass without exceptional strength. Let's say, for example, you have a human being, 6 feet tall, who weighs 1,000 pounds (which is certainly possible; over a dozen people in recorded history have exceeded the half-ton mark). I think we can all agree the person is Huge, but in most cases, the vast majority of that weight is fat, not muscle - the person is so weak he can't stand, and can barely move under his own power. He certainly doesn't have a high Strength score (maybe slightly higher than normal), but he still qualifies for a VSC. How? Because he exceeds the maximum weight allowance for his size. The Bestiary says that the max weight for Medium creatures is 500 pounds; if we use that as a guideline, anything beyond that gains a VSC. Each increment of 500 additional pounds, therefore, would gain another VSC - a 1,000-pound human would have 2.However, you can't apply VSCs infinitely - a creature of a given size can become only so large before it collapses under its own weight, because the laws of physics still apply, even in a fantasy setting. I made up a rough table:[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Natural&nbsp; &nbsp; Semi-natural&nbsp; &nbsp; Supernatural&nbsp; &nbsp; UnnaturalFine&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; Diminutive&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2Tiny&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3Small&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4Medium&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5Large&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6Huge&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7Gargantuan&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8Colossal&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9Titanic&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 10[/code]The classifications are something I came up with for the size/HD rules. Natural: Any creature that can be found in the real world (or close enough): Animal, humanoid, vermin.Semi-Natural: Any creature that has a natural physiognomy - two arms, two/four legs, a head, and more or less resembles a normal creature: Giant, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant. (Yes, I know oozes don't really fall into this category, but they're not really supernatural either.)Supernatural: Any creature that is completely fantastical; most have features that would/could never exist in nature, and often have abilities that could exist only through the presence of magic: Aberration, fey, outsider. Unnatural: Anything that is either nonliving or completely artificial, and is thus not bound by the constraints of a living body: constructs, elementals, undead.I don't actually know if these numbers will work, but I think they're close. An exponential increase by size (1 for Medium, 2 for Large, 4 for Huge, etc.) rendered a rather large number very quickly, and I think that would exceed the bounds of what's possible - Titanic creatures are big and strong, but I doubt they could have 32 VSCs. Likewise, a creature's Strength can only increase so far before it becomes so strong that it rips itself apart.This rule accounts for some creatures having more HD than they should - dire bears and tigers, some dinosaurs (triceratops and T Rex), and some of the epic beasties. I further postulate that the Strength and Con gains from VSCs are NOT equal to those gained from a true size increase - they should be halved. Also, I daresay that Strength is a function of size, not the other way around - it is true that as inherent Strength increases, the creature's muscle mass (and thus density) increases; but this should already be accounted for in the creature's weight, which (as I've already pointed) affects VSCs. Extremely dense creatures like golems are accounted for also - an iron golem is 5,000 pounds and size Large; the max weight for Large size is 4,000 pounds, thus the golem gains 1 VSC. However, your Strength advancement rules are useful for determining how much weight a creature gains for each point of Strength. Let's say I advanced a dire bear to 17 HD (Huge). It would gain 10 points of Strength, but its weight would double to 16,000 pounds. This puts it at the upper limit of the Large weight class (no VSC), but a few more HD would tip it over the edge and gain it that VSC. While this would technically equal a +15 increase in Strength and qualify for another VSC, it doesn't actually work that way - 5 points of that Strength are themselves gained from a VSC, and thus don't apply toward the total. Since a dire bear cannot be larger than Huge, it'll never qualify for a second VSC from size increases, though it might from inherent Strength.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kerrick, post: 4699467, member: 4722"] (New post for an unrelated topic :) ) In the course of revising the epic monsters, I started playing around with the size/HD ratio rules. That's really a topic for another thread (I'll be posting the revised monsters as I finish them), but I want to discuss some findings I made regarding VSCs. VSCs are a great invention, but their implementation is slightly flawed. UK, you didn't account for creatures with exceptional mass without exceptional strength. Let's say, for example, you have a human being, 6 feet tall, who weighs 1,000 pounds (which is certainly possible; over a dozen people in recorded history have exceeded the half-ton mark). I think we can all agree the person is Huge, but in most cases, the vast majority of that weight is fat, not muscle - the person is so weak he can't stand, and can barely move under his own power. He certainly doesn't have a high Strength score (maybe slightly higher than normal), but he still qualifies for a VSC. How? Because he exceeds the maximum weight allowance for his size. The Bestiary says that the max weight for Medium creatures is 500 pounds; if we use that as a guideline, anything beyond that gains a VSC. Each increment of 500 additional pounds, therefore, would gain another VSC - a 1,000-pound human would have 2. However, you can't apply VSCs infinitely - a creature of a given size can become only so large before it collapses under its own weight, because the laws of physics still apply, even in a fantasy setting. I made up a rough table: [code] Natural Semi-natural Supernatural Unnatural Fine 0 0 0 1 Diminutive 0 0 1 2 Tiny 0 1 2 3 Small 1 2 3 4 Medium 2 3 4 5 Large 3 4 5 6 Huge 4 5 6 7 Gargantuan 5 6 7 8 Colossal 6 7 8 9 Titanic 7 8 9 10 [/code] The classifications are something I came up with for the size/HD rules. [I]Natural:[/I] Any creature that can be found in the real world (or close enough): Animal, humanoid, vermin. [I]Semi-Natural:[/I] Any creature that has a natural physiognomy - two arms, two/four legs, a head, and more or less resembles a normal creature: Giant, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant. (Yes, I know oozes don't really fall into this category, but they're not really supernatural either.) [I]Supernatural:[/I] Any creature that is completely fantastical; most have features that would/could never exist in nature, and often have abilities that could exist only through the presence of magic: Aberration, fey, outsider. [I]Unnatural:[/I] Anything that is either nonliving or completely artificial, and is thus not bound by the constraints of a living body: constructs, elementals, undead. I don't actually know if these numbers will work, but I think they're close. An exponential increase by size (1 for Medium, 2 for Large, 4 for Huge, etc.) rendered a rather large number very quickly, and I think that would exceed the bounds of what's possible - Titanic creatures are big and strong, but I doubt they could have 32 VSCs. Likewise, a creature's Strength can only increase so far before it becomes so strong that it rips itself apart. This rule accounts for some creatures having more HD than they should - dire bears and tigers, some dinosaurs (triceratops and T Rex), and some of the epic beasties. I further postulate that the Strength and Con gains from VSCs are NOT equal to those gained from a true size increase - they should be halved. Also, I daresay that Strength is a function of size, not the other way around - it is true that as inherent Strength increases, the creature's muscle mass (and thus density) increases; but this should already be accounted for in the creature's weight, which (as I've already pointed) affects VSCs. Extremely dense creatures like golems are accounted for also - an iron golem is 5,000 pounds and size Large; the max weight for Large size is 4,000 pounds, thus the golem gains 1 VSC. However, your Strength advancement rules are useful for determining how much weight a creature gains for each point of Strength. Let's say I advanced a dire bear to 17 HD (Huge). It would gain 10 points of Strength, but its weight would double to 16,000 pounds. This puts it at the upper limit of the Large weight class (no VSC), but a few more HD would tip it over the edge and gain it that VSC. While this would technically equal a +15 increase in Strength and qualify for another VSC, it doesn't actually work that way - 5 points of that Strength are themselves gained from a VSC, and thus don't apply toward the total. Since a dire bear cannot be larger than Huge, it'll never qualify for a second VSC from size increases, though it might from inherent Strength. [/QUOTE]

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