Improving Monsters & Spell Resistance

[smakko]

When casting Shapechange to take the form of another creature, you assume the Spell Resistance of that Creature.

What happens when you Shapechange into an advanced version of a monster that has Spell Resistance? Does the creature's SR advance as it's HD increase?

I can't find a formula that explicitly states this and a majority of the monsters don't seem to follow the standard 5, 11, or 15 + HD formula that templates or other races typically bestow on PCs

So, what's a Wizard that casts Shapechange a lot to do?

 

[Persiflage]

Honestly? Stick to creatures with the right number of HD and a listed SR you're happy with (or whose descriptions specify how their SR advances) because otherwise you're off the map and flying blind.

It's going to be down to your DM, although you might find this thread useful to help establish what you're arguing for.

EDIT: This thread, too.

 

[smakko]

Honestly? Stick to creatures with the right number of HD and a listed SR you're happy with (or whose descriptions specify how their SR advances)

It's pretty much a necessary evil to use advanced monsters given the high power campaign.

Just wondering if there was a rule out there that I am missing.

 

[Jhaelen]

It's pretty much a necessary evil to use advanced monsters given the high power campaign.

Just wondering if there was a rule out there that I am missing.

Perhaps that you cannot take the form of advanced or templated creatures or monsters with class levels?

AFAIK, shapechange shares this restriction with polymorph.

 

[Dandu]

Thankfully.

 

[smakko]

Perhaps that you cannot take the form of advanced or templated creatures or monsters with class levels?

AFAIK, shapechange shares this restriction with polymorph.

OK scrath the Shapechange element then. Pretend I'm a DM and want to make an advanced Pit Fiend, how do I translate increased HD to increased SR?​

But to beat the dead medium warhorse...Per the WotC 3.5 most recent FAQ, the

rules don’t explicitly prevent this, but for speed of play (and reasons of sanity) it’s entirely reasonable for a DM to disallow any forms other than those detailed in the MM (or other allowed volumes of monsters). If the DM chooses to allow advanced creatures, the player must supply full statistics for the advanced version before play begins. Remember that the Hit Die limit for the various polymorph spells still applies (a 7th-level wizard can’t use polymorph to assume the form of a 10-HD advanced sahuagin).

So it's a DM call, and since we're uber-detail oriented folk, there's no real problem from our standpoint of doing the extra paper-work.​

​

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

OK scrath the Shapechange element then. Pretend I'm a DM and want to make an advanced Pit Fiend, how do I translate increased HD to increased SR?

I've never seen a rule for advancing SR. Where I'd start might be with the spell "Spell Resistance", which effectively bestows +1 SR per caster level. Assuming a "caster level" is on par with a "CR", I'd probably just up the SR by +1 for every step up in CR.

So for your pit fiend, that would be +1 SR per +2 HD because outsiders increase by +1 CR per +2HD according to the HD advancement table. For an advanced nightwing, on the other hand, it would be +1 SR per +4 HD.

Other than that, I'm not really sure how else to guess at SR advancement. But it's a start, I suppose.

 

[Jhaelen]

OK scrath the Shapechange element then. Pretend I'm a DM and want to make an advanced Pit Fiend, how do I translate increased HD to increased SR?​

Okay.

As a DM I usually advance SR by one per additional HD. I also typically advance the caster level for spell-like abilities by one per additional HD.

 

[the Jester]

By the RAW, there's no improvement to SR for advancing HD.

This is good, IMHO; it means that multiclassed casters might actually have a chance to hit the bad guy with a spell.

That said, it's been a while since I ran 3e, but I seem to recall and "Improved Spell Resistance" feat or something like that, maybe one you could take multiple times? (It may be an epic feat though; the last couple years of 3e I ran were at epic levels.)

 

[freyar]

I've never seen a rule for advancing SR. Where I'd start might be with the spell "Spell Resistance", which effectively bestows +1 SR per caster level. Assuming a "caster level" is on par with a "CR", I'd probably just up the SR by +1 for every step up in CR.

So for your pit fiend, that would be +1 SR per +2 HD because outsiders increase by +1 CR per +2HD according to the HD advancement table. For an advanced nightwing, on the other hand, it would be +1 SR per +4 HD.

Other than that, I'm not really sure how else to guess at SR advancement. But it's a start, I suppose.

the_orc_within has essentially summarized how we work out SR for conversions from 1e/2e in the creature catalog. That formula ensures that a caster of level a given difference from the monster's CR always has the same % chance to beat the SR. Of course, if you want that monster to have a better (or worse) chance to avoid the spell because it's advanced, just modify appropriately from that benchmark. Each change of SR by 1 is a change in probability of beating the SR by 5%.