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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5655225" data-attributes="member: 35909">If you can believe it, I was actually being overly nice in my ratings, as I knew to not expect much.  That even "grading on a curve" my ratings were as low as that is just sad.  If I ever bother (with the final version nerfs from the playtest, I'm convinced it's unplayable, so why bother?) to rate Ninja Tricks, I'll be much more brutally honest in their worth.  And...I guarantee you they'll still score better.  Because the stuff Ninjas get is actually helpful.  If only they were left with the ki to make much use of it...My responses to your houserules (If something's missing, I agree and have no comment) including a few of my own suggestions for things you considered hopeless that i think have potential:[sblock]Assault Leader: Does this also cost the Rogue his immediate action, or just the ally's?  I'd limit it to once/round in either case.Befuddling Strike: Why did I rate this 2 stars?!  Dang I was soft.  Your revision still might not be enough.Camouflage: Being destroyed isn't much of an issue, it only takes 1 min. per person to redo.  And it's odd for it to not be destroyable.  I think the terms could be better defined, like how a cold burst somehow destroys it yet scorching ray does not.Charmer: It might be ok unlimited use, but it probably should have some limits.  In particular with diplomacy, I think this would be too good for a dip to snatch up as you've changed it.Combat Swipe: You gave up on this, but I think all it needs is an extra line to say that you can now obtain Greater Steal without meeting the prerequisites and it's golden.Distracting Attack: I think this one was fine as is, and you've made it useless for a simple Rogue 2 dip to help the actual party Rogue, which IMO is the main reason to take it.  Benefiting multiple allies is nice and all, but overall I prefer the original to your revision.Fast Fingers: I don't mind this as unlimited use, others might.Guileful Polyglot: You gave up on it, I'd have it give a free language each Rogue level from then on, culminating in Tongue of the Sun and Moon at level 15 or something.Hard to Fool: See Fast Fingers.Honeyed Words: See Fast Fingers.Major and Minor Magic: I rated these too well.  I suggest allowing the Rogue to choose a new cantrip/spell each day as she likees, at a minimum.Nimble Climber: Your version is an imporvement, but I would have this either a) let you reroll any failed climb check, not just ones you failed by 5 or more, at the same bonus and DC or b) Let you retain your Dex mod and dodge bonuses to AC while climbing.Peerless Maneuver: See Fast Fingers.Positioning Attack: I'd prefer if it was unchanged from what's written except made once/encounter instead of once/day.  Or if you don't like encounter-based metrics, you can use it once on a given oppponent each day.  And remain 30 ft and not an action cost.Snap Shot: For the first attack?  That's...awkward.  I don't know how I would like this changed, but...not like that.Sniper's Eye: Excellent, especially if using my rogue houserules to eliminate concealment as a SA-denying condition.Stand Up: After a certain Rogue level (5-7 seems like a fine, arbitrary point to pick), you should be able to stand without provoking.  At a higher level (11?  I don't know), it can give the option to kip back up to your feet Shawn Michaels style as an immediate action, before you can even provoke an AoO from someone with Greater Trip for falling and the like.Surprise Attack: If this extended through any possible surprise round AND the first round (even if there is no surprise round), this could be decent.AdvancedAnother Day: Unlimited would be too good.  I'd say once/encounter or get rid of staggered if it's once/day.Fast Tumble: Tumbling past a dozen foes means putting a dozen foes between yourself and your party...  I don't really care if doing this is slightly easier in PF.  Tumbling is still suicidal.  And 1-4 foes is 95% more likely to be what you encounter in a D&D/PF game.Hunter's Surprise: If this explicitly let you sneak attack something normally immune (including the % protection of fortification armor) and was once/encounter, it'd actually be awesome.Knock Out Blow: An at will save or lose that can potentially be spammed 6 times a round or so is too strong, you need to rein this one in.Master of Disguise: As your changes and not an advanced talent, or just simply make it a supernatural Disguise Self usable at will (CL = Rogue level) and keep it here.  It's a level 1 spell effect and an 1800 gp item, it'd be far from overpowered.  In fact, make it a swift action to use.Redirect Attack: Your version is fine.  Alternatively, as written in APG but once/encounter.Stealthy Sniper: I don't mind this, just note that your advanced talent is now giving only a +5 bonus to a specific use of a skill, not even a full time +5.  By level 10+, Skill Focus is giving +6 to every use of the skill...[/sblock]Also, since we're at the stage of houserules, these are my current ideas for rogue to help establish them as the skill kings, make ranged SA viable again (mostly just reversing all the changes PF made), and reduce their MAD:[sblock]Rogue (all changes also apply to Ninja):- Gain a good will save progression.- A Rogue gains a bonus to Initiative equal to half his Rogue level. Starting at level 8, a Rogue may choose (before rolling) to take a -10 penalty on his Initiative roll if there is a surprise round and he can act in it. By doing so, the Rogue gains a full round of actions in the surprise round. At level 16, a Rogue always gains a full round in the surprise round, without needing to take the penalty. At 20th level, a Rogue can always act in a surprise round.- Every 3rd Rogue level, choose two skills. You gain the Skill Focus feat with these skills.- Sneak attack works under concealment but not total concealment.Relevant to Rogues but not directly part of the class:- Blinking allows you to sneak attack.- Enemies balancing without 3 Acrobatics ranks can be sneak attacked.- You can sneak attack with splash weapons against a target you hit with the primary (not splash) damage.- Acrobatics: Only contains Balance and Tumble (new skill called Athletics contains Jump and Climb). No longer a Barbarian class skill. Can be used to roll on a landing (DC 15) to reduce falling damage by 10 ft (you can still also jump down with the Athletics skill, also). Without 3 Acrobatics ranks, if you stand in an area that requires balance checks, you lose your dexterity and dodge bonuses to AC. Tumble DCs follow 3.5's rules (ie, base DC 15 and so forth, the enemy's CMD is irrelevant, etc...).- Weapon Finesse: Any weapon that can be finessed can use the wielder's dexterity modifier instead of strength on attack rolls without need of this feat. This feat allows a creature to add his dexterity to damage with any light weapon or weapon with the finesse property instead of strength. You do not gain extra damage from wielding a weapon two-handed as you would with strength, and your damage is still modified by any strength penalty you may have (in addition to adding your dexterity modifier).[/sblock]</blockquote>

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