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Message: <blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 6728290" data-attributes="member: 3192">You are ignoring the role of a referee (umpire, etc.) in a game. They stop the game, usually, to make a call. It can be done while the game continues on, but the actual players who are playing the game to achieve goals in it need to be informed of the judgment calls. Of course, most players are refereeing themselves and others too, but neutral referees are used - as in D&D - to insure adherence to the rules.Kreigsspiel is a great game. "Free" Kriegsspiel isn't a game the same way the Calvinball isn't a game. People can attempt to treat such as an illusion as a game, but as I said before to [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], most folks wouldn't play such as an actual game except ironically.Like two old folks playing Chess where the dog knocks pieces off the board and no one notices.But there are points scored and definitive endgame conditions for every player and the campaign itself. Specifically, retirement or loss of character individually and as a whole). If you defined games as exclusively needing a winner determined, then perhaps Name Level could be assigned for each player. I think this could be detrimental to cooperative (not collaborative) games. D&D is after all not about winning, but about succeeding. About players actually improving themselves according to the test which is the game design. IMnshO, D&D's initial design is at the heart of what games are. Quite unlike group storytelling.Judgement refers to assessing the state of the game board according to the rule pattern preset. New DM material comes from die roll generation to determine outcomes. All new player material need only be defined as needed to deal with the current action, with all the rest abstracted. Neither of us could know, right? Because they still so wanted to play a game, even a broken one? Because no one knew how to fix it without ruining the game, (i.e. the mechanical balance)?You're questions make no sense. You're asking where are the rules for "this behavior" in a game that doesn't have those game elements as having that behavior? #1. Of course, the pattern behind the screen can be drawn out in front if players can receive all that information under the rules. This is well known. Players can attempt to take actions like movement, but they still require the referee to determine if such attempts are possible. That the player moves the piece is partly like players rolling the dice. But minis also enables players to more fine tune their description attempts for how they want to move.#2This is most blatantly obvious when we recognize the rest of the world understands game walkthroughs to beat computers games as cheating rather than attempting to play the game for one's self.#3 & #4Also, boardgames are mazes because they represent a geometric design for a game. Some folks can toss the chess board aside and still continue the game because the pattern is in their imagination. Something every D&D player struggles to do better.I believe 2e finally included in the statblocks cultural behavior like alignment for reaction checks, ability scores, organization, % in lair, environment, morale, and loyalty adjustments. Monster Manual 1977 included all kinds of social organizational designs in the descriptions. Those are suggestions for a DM to use in their design. Many are very good.Maybe you don't know about roleplaying in the 50s-70s after the war, but it wasn't about fictional personas. D&D is the iconic RPG as the term roleplaying was used in army wargame simulations. They taught soldiers their role. D&D is a game where players improve their ability to perform their role (class) by mastering the game system it refers to. They can prove this and increase needed class abilities to more easily overcome and accomplish higher level challenges and objectives by scoring points relating to their roleplaying. Improvising a personality wasn't part of roleplaying in the RPG community until the 80s. Personality stuff was also fun to do, but like in any game it can interfere with a person trying to play a game.I'm glad I could help you learn more about where the hobby we're in comes from and what D&D is. I too, am not trying to stop you from having fun your way - collaboratively telling stories with your friends.</blockquote>

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