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Message: <blockquote data-quote="howandwhy99" data-source="post: 6728772" data-attributes="member: 3192">Obviously you're wrong. But naysaying isn't helping anyone here. I agree with everything prior to this, but not this. I'm guessing you knew that before you posted. I know I can get off track too, but let's both try and stick close to relevant points. I have to say, this long post is too long to bother with, if you end up responding to every fruitless detail.when we remove the improv during a game. So the pattern of the field of play and rules can be deciphered through play.You just said in the previous quote, "IOW, it was viewed as the façade of a game, but not actually a game, by its own designers."I'm skipping this. I've dealt with it in other threads as have others. But I agree in principle the XP rewards need to better reflect roleplaying the selected class. We've both been in D&D for some time I take it. I'm not hunting down quotes about how losing your character, retiring it, or reaching highest (name) level means a player has finished the game and needs to roll up a new one to start playing again.But victory points are there. XP score. Since it's a cooperative game no one's declared "the winner". I don't see how discussing this gets us anywhere. I *guess* they'd rather play a game that wasn't broken. you said the system was incomplete. That they still wanted to play possibly speaks to all sorts of stuff. Desperation? The quality of the partial design remaining?And yet the game system is incomplete. Maybe you mean "unfun"?So Toon is a game that covers every player attempt and the others are broken. Go figure. As I said before, the books are suggestions, not an all encompassing design. There are multiple suggestions covering the same areas even. And of course the obligatory - DMs are never allowed to improvise in D&D.Maybe you didn't understand. I said they could not move the tokens on the gameboard behind the screen. Do you think players can do the same in mastermind? If players can receive the info from part of the design, the ref might draw it out. Moving tokens is not them telling a story, but making attempts the referee can clarify as the players demonstrate. Read what I wrote again. You're making me repeat myself and this is all too much naysaying and repetition for me to want to continue.Your first sentence is actually true. But, unlike his further assertions, a DM should use different codes for different campaigns to change it up. I take it you didn't miss all the DM screens published for every version of D&D? Do you not know why they were there? Like why all the modules had maps for tracking locations? Is any of the mere existence of this stuff proof for you?Of course, I'm not going to reveal my hard worked for code online, so every potential player can see it. That I use many rules from the suggestions in the books isn't wrong, but Gary left a lot up to individual DMs.This isn't actual history. Roleplaying is learning a social role as done in the army for decades before D&D. That many of those guys were also in the hobby wargaming community and likely offered is where the name came from. A person doesn't need to protray someone else when performing a social role, so that's why the different term exists at all. Meaning it is seperate from acting. The RP element in RPGS like D&D is scoring points in your role.D&D is the first RPG. By my understanding Kriegspiel was a wargame.You're ignoring all the dozens and dozens of tables for the DM to roll on in D&D? I prove beyond a shadow of a doubt what a DM is for and you choose to forget the DM does have to roll all that stuff up? One player can stop playing in another person's game of Mastermind and run another game for someone else. Other people can send you a code, sealed, to play a game of D&D, but there's no referee to run it, so the player rolls him or her self. And Gary used hidden information, maybe even a screen before D&D was even published. That I'm not bothering to find some absolute statement of its need in the the OD&D stuff, so much of it published piecemeal, is me not caring enough to prove this well known fact 40 years later.And of course I said no such thing. A DM is referee, not an improvisor.</blockquote>

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