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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6729674" data-attributes="member: 87792">Absolutely seconded. In fact I'm going to go one step further. There is nothing wrong with the principles [MENTION=3192]howandwhy99[/MENTION] is claiming for some games. But D&amp;D was founded on the absolute rejection of those principles. It was founded on <a href="http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/" target="_blank">Arneson playing Braunstein</a> rejecting his role as students' revolutionary leader and instead playing &quot;con artist pretending to be from the CIA&quot;. In other words fundamentally rejecting his soical role and pushing at the boundaries to see what could be done.And Braunstein itself was a freeform LARP. A game with adjudication and without rules. And D&amp;D came out of the GM losing control of his game.It was further cemented through the Castles and Crusades society and Arneson's group rejecting their massed battles and instead going for stealing magic swords off each other and counting coup in a way not covered by the rules to the point Gygax visited to ask them wtf they were doing. Because they were fundamentally rejecting the social roles built into the game in favour of what they found more interesting.Board games and computer games are frequently as Howandwhy99 describes (indeed Papers Please might be the platonic ideal of such a game). Team Sports, especially American Football, also work that way a lot. D&amp;D on the other hand was founded on rejecting that paradigm.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6729674, member: 87792"] Absolutely seconded. In fact I'm going to go one step further. There is nothing wrong with the principles [MENTION=3192]howandwhy99[/MENTION] is claiming for some games. But D&D was founded on the absolute rejection of those principles. It was founded on [URL="http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/104/braunstein-the-roots-of-roleplaying-games/"]Arneson playing Braunstein[/URL] rejecting his role as students' revolutionary leader and instead playing "con artist pretending to be from the CIA". In other words fundamentally rejecting his soical role and pushing at the boundaries to see what could be done. And Braunstein itself was a freeform LARP. A game with adjudication and without rules. And D&D came out of the GM losing control of his game. It was further cemented through the Castles and Crusades society and Arneson's group rejecting their massed battles and instead going for stealing magic swords off each other and counting coup in a way not covered by the rules to the point Gygax visited to ask them wtf they were doing. Because they were fundamentally rejecting the social roles built into the game in favour of what they found more interesting. Board games and computer games are frequently as Howandwhy99 describes (indeed Papers Please might be the platonic ideal of such a game). Team Sports, especially American Football, also work that way a lot. D&D on the other hand was founded on rejecting that paradigm. [/QUOTE]

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