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<blockquote data-quote="Zak S" data-source="post: 6732483" data-attributes="member: 90370">Point is Edwards theories are irrelevant dross, not Newtonian&nbsp; &quot;useful approximations&quot;If you'd like to insist Burning Wheel's not a hilariously bad game, I'm not gonna argue with you. I laid out my case. It seems monstrously ill-conceived on all levels to me and Luke Crane's own tales of how disfunctional his game group powerfully indicate that GNS appealed to him because he was trying to find a way around the obvious conclusion that he had a lot of jerks in his game group by blaming the system.Yup.The thing about RM is, like many systems Ron called &quot;simulationist&quot; is that they simply are systems with a lot of detail.The simulatory detail is there to provide a wider range of tactical (&quot;gamist&quot;) options and so that actions taken in pursuit of these goals have legible narrative effects--not just for its own sake. This 3-way interaction is something Forgies never got. The elephant has a weight (sim) so we know if it's a good tactic to drop it on the villain (game) and what you'll have to do to lift it onto him (story).&quot;Phrenology helped me learn to use a ruler&quot;.There are way smarter, faster, more accessible ways to talk about games which are connected to WAY FEWER TOXIC PRACTICES AND PEOPLE than GNS. Use them instead.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Zak S, post: 6732483, member: 90370"] Point is Edwards theories are irrelevant dross, not Newtonian "useful approximations" If you'd like to insist Burning Wheel's not a hilariously bad game, I'm not gonna argue with you. I laid out my case. It seems monstrously ill-conceived on all levels to me and Luke Crane's own tales of how disfunctional his game group powerfully indicate that GNS appealed to him because he was trying to find a way around the obvious conclusion that he had a lot of jerks in his game group by blaming the system. Yup. The thing about RM is, like many systems Ron called "simulationist" is that they simply are systems with a lot of detail. The simulatory detail is there to provide a wider range of tactical ("gamist") options and so that actions taken in pursuit of these goals have legible narrative effects--not just for its own sake. This 3-way interaction is something Forgies never got. The elephant has a weight (sim) so we know if it's a good tactic to drop it on the villain (game) and what you'll have to do to lift it onto him (story). "Phrenology helped me learn to use a ruler". There are way smarter, faster, more accessible ways to talk about games which are connected to WAY FEWER TOXIC PRACTICES AND PEOPLE than GNS. Use them instead. [/QUOTE]

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