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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6732775" data-attributes="member: 4937">I'm one of the leading theorists of &quot;sandboxes aren't inherently better than linear adventures and can go wrong in just as many ways&quot;.&nbsp; I've been pushing the term &quot;rowboat world&quot; on the community for years now, and been trying my best to convince people that railroading techniques aren't always bad things just things you can misuse or overuse.But that doesn't mean that I think sandboxes and railroads are equivalent things, particularly just because we can draw parallels to them like: &quot;they both can go bad&quot;, &quot;one of the ways they can go bad is players failing to engage with the content&quot;, or &quot;both can have dungeons in them&quot;. You have no idea how much it frustrates me irrationally, that players rationally prefer to go in straight lines rather than wander about in curling loops simply to bash into additional dangerous prepared encounters that lie to either side. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Or the pain when players decide its better to just burn down a lovingly crafted haunted house than explore it.&nbsp;&nbsp; Or the disappointment when players decide to effectively declare a status quo antebellum, rather than root there foes out of the dungeon you spent 20 hours making.The closest a player can come to understanding that is when the PC they've been running for 5 years dies to a series of bad dice rolls.&nbsp;&nbsp; If content isn't dense enough, then it won't even be dumb chance.&nbsp; Either way, you've got a rowboat world that needs to be solved with more content density, more content bleed and less compartmentalization, and more consciously created breadcrumbs.At which point it ceases to be a sandbox.&nbsp; This is invariably a problem when it happens regardless of what technique the GM employs.&nbsp; You can go full on &quot;no myth&quot;, utilize scene framing to cut out the boring parts, and let players set the narrative goals and even situations, and yet if you the GM are uninterested in running the sort of stories the players are interested in exploring, the table has a problem and it's not a problem any amount of system or technique can solve.&nbsp; GNS would call this a conflict of creative agenda and pretend its a system problem, but the conflicts can really arise at pretty much any level.&nbsp;&nbsp; So much Forge is just, &quot;My GM is a jerk.&quot;, or &quot;My GM has low skill.&quot;, or &quot;My GM isn't interested in running the game that I want him to run.&quot;, but &quot;System is going to make it all right.&quot;&nbsp; Not only is that wrong, but there wasn't enough attention paid to, &quot;The player is a jerk.&quot;, &quot;The player has low skill.&quot;, or &quot;What the player wants is boring to everyone but the player.&quot;In actual play, if no one finds it boring, it doesn't matter whether its more or less of a railroad than a sandbox.&nbsp;&nbsp; The rails don't matter if no one tries to get off.&nbsp; The improvisational Sargasso sea stays fresh as long as the players are awed by the novelty of play.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6732775, member: 4937"] I'm one of the leading theorists of "sandboxes aren't inherently better than linear adventures and can go wrong in just as many ways". I've been pushing the term "rowboat world" on the community for years now, and been trying my best to convince people that railroading techniques aren't always bad things just things you can misuse or overuse. But that doesn't mean that I think sandboxes and railroads are equivalent things, particularly just because we can draw parallels to them like: "they both can go bad", "one of the ways they can go bad is players failing to engage with the content", or "both can have dungeons in them". You have no idea how much it frustrates me irrationally, that players rationally prefer to go in straight lines rather than wander about in curling loops simply to bash into additional dangerous prepared encounters that lie to either side. :) Or the pain when players decide its better to just burn down a lovingly crafted haunted house than explore it. Or the disappointment when players decide to effectively declare a status quo antebellum, rather than root there foes out of the dungeon you spent 20 hours making. The closest a player can come to understanding that is when the PC they've been running for 5 years dies to a series of bad dice rolls. If content isn't dense enough, then it won't even be dumb chance. Either way, you've got a rowboat world that needs to be solved with more content density, more content bleed and less compartmentalization, and more consciously created breadcrumbs. At which point it ceases to be a sandbox. This is invariably a problem when it happens regardless of what technique the GM employs. You can go full on "no myth", utilize scene framing to cut out the boring parts, and let players set the narrative goals and even situations, and yet if you the GM are uninterested in running the sort of stories the players are interested in exploring, the table has a problem and it's not a problem any amount of system or technique can solve. GNS would call this a conflict of creative agenda and pretend its a system problem, but the conflicts can really arise at pretty much any level. So much Forge is just, "My GM is a jerk.", or "My GM has low skill.", or "My GM isn't interested in running the game that I want him to run.", but "System is going to make it all right." Not only is that wrong, but there wasn't enough attention paid to, "The player is a jerk.", "The player has low skill.", or "What the player wants is boring to everyone but the player." In actual play, if no one finds it boring, it doesn't matter whether its more or less of a railroad than a sandbox. The rails don't matter if no one tries to get off. The improvisational Sargasso sea stays fresh as long as the players are awed by the novelty of play. [/QUOTE]

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