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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 6732885" data-attributes="member: 177">Actually, the point is that you feel Edwards' theories are irrelevant dross...Let us be clear - with, say, Newtonian mechanics, we can do an experiment with something approaching objective measurements, and test whether the theory matches the real world.&nbsp; That mechanism is not readily available for RPGs at reasonable cost.&nbsp; So, we are left with opinions.&nbsp; I *agree* with you that GNS has significant shortcomings.&nbsp; However, we cannot say with any level of confidence how close to reality GNS (or any other paradigm) is, because *nobody* has the data.&nbsp; It is all *opinions*.&nbsp; It would be wondrous if you spoke as if you recognized that fact.But, here's the thing you may be missing - the utility of GNS is not necessarily driven by it being particularly accurate.I will turn to tarot cards as an example.&nbsp; As a physicist, I know darned well that the random draw of cards from a deck has no relation to how a person's life will turn out - as a model for the universe and the future, there's nothing accurate about a tarot deck.&nbsp; However, it is also demonstrable that a tarot reading can be an effective problem-solving tool.&nbsp; How is that possible?It proves useful by taking you outside of your own head, and, for a time, allowing your thoughts to be driven by an outside logic and framework.&nbsp; Tarot cards can assist you in thinking outside the box, taking you outside your mental ruts, and forcing you to think about interactions and interrelations you wouldn't consider on your own.&nbsp; Sometimes, to generate ideas, it does not matter much what framework of approach you use, so long as you pick one.Thus, you get things like FATE.&nbsp; It is pretty clear that the game is *not* really a Forge design.&nbsp; It is similarly clear, however, that considering Narrative as a major force we could bring to the fore *is* part of its design.&nbsp; But, instead of trying to take on narrative alone, as GNS in full would have you do, it takes Narrative and Game and does a pretty good job of aligning them.&nbsp; The Game portion is not particularly deep, but it is formed such that doing the Game-appropriate thing and the Narrative-appropriate thing are not at odds, and is an award-winning design that probably would not have arisen had the Forge and GNS theory never happened.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 6732885, member: 177"] Actually, the point is that [i]you feel[/i] Edwards' theories are irrelevant dross... Let us be clear - with, say, Newtonian mechanics, we can do an experiment with something approaching objective measurements, and test whether the theory matches the real world. That mechanism is not readily available for RPGs at reasonable cost. So, we are left with opinions. I *agree* with you that GNS has significant shortcomings. However, we cannot say with any level of confidence how close to reality GNS (or any other paradigm) is, because *nobody* has the data. It is all *opinions*. It would be wondrous if you spoke as if you recognized that fact. But, here's the thing you may be missing - the utility of GNS is not necessarily driven by it being particularly accurate. I will turn to tarot cards as an example. As a physicist, I know darned well that the random draw of cards from a deck has no relation to how a person's life will turn out - as a model for the universe and the future, there's nothing accurate about a tarot deck. However, it is also demonstrable that a tarot reading can be an effective problem-solving tool. How is that possible? It proves useful by taking you outside of your own head, and, for a time, allowing your thoughts to be driven by an outside logic and framework. Tarot cards can assist you in thinking outside the box, taking you outside your mental ruts, and forcing you to think about interactions and interrelations you wouldn't consider on your own. Sometimes, to generate ideas, it does not matter much what framework of approach you use, so long as you pick one. Thus, you get things like FATE. It is pretty clear that the game is *not* really a Forge design. It is similarly clear, however, that considering Narrative as a major force we could bring to the fore *is* part of its design. But, instead of trying to take on narrative alone, as GNS in full would have you do, it takes Narrative and Game and does a pretty good job of aligning them. The Game portion is not particularly deep, but it is formed such that doing the Game-appropriate thing and the Narrative-appropriate thing are not at odds, and is an award-winning design that probably would not have arisen had the Forge and GNS theory never happened. [/QUOTE]

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