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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6733752" data-attributes="member: 4937">I've already responded to you at length, but a few things in your other post just leapt out as obvious nonsense.Don't the third and fourth sentences of that paragraph contradict the second?  Either it is the case that it is a "skill check game" or else it is the case that there are no checks in games, but both can't be true.  And you've no way shown that a skill check can't be a game mechanic.  For that matter, since you earlier asserted that games were things we treated as games, so can't it be true that if we treat something with skill checks as a game, it's a game.  If it isn't a game, what is it?Lots of people are playing something that looks an awful lot like a game.  If it isn't a game, what is it?  And it sure seems like what you are actually saying here is actually, "That's not the first through last reasons why I ever play a game."  It's pretty clear lots of people play games for reasons that aren't congruent with your reasons.No, you've got it backwards.  The pieces on the gameboard are merely tokens or markers of the game state.  There is a pretty good way to prove that.  Two chess masters with the requisite skill can play a game of chess blindfolded.  If we blindfolded those players and took away the board, they would still be able to play the game, not knowing that the board had been removed an the game was going on purely in their shared imaginary space.At this point, you just fully agreed with the guy that you disagreed with.  Yes, the pieces and the gameboards are just manifestations of the game and markers of it, and not the game itself.Many games don't keep score.  Certainly puzzles tend to not keep score.  They are either solved or not.As a quibble, if you are familiar with how a Rubik's cube is solved, making more than one side of the same color doesn't in fact indicate progress toward the objective of all sides of the same color.  That's not actually how you make progress in solving a Rubik's cube, and in fact to make progress would require 'mixing that side up again'.  Moreover, a scoring system for a Rubik's cube is irrelevant to the puzzle, but if you made one (as for an AI system that needed to puzzle out how to solve the cube), it wouldn't depend on the number of solved sides.No, actually it's not.  Not by any common definition of game play.  Not even by your definition.   Even by your definition, we'd have to think of code breaking as game play before it would be game play.  The British group trying to crack the enigma code were not playing a game.   I suppose by your definition if they thought about it as a game, then it would have been a game but by most definitions of game in common use, that's not true.  Most games are played for fun, have limited duration, refer to a fictitious space in which the game occurs, and so forth.  In the novel "Ender's Game", OSC plays on this fact that we can believe something to be a game, but it not actually in fact be a game because it actually lacks necessary features a game has - like fiction.   You're definition of what a game is tends to be incomplete.   Code breaking in and of itself isn't a game and isn't game play.  And it's quite possible to have game play that isn't code breaking.   At best, you could claim game play is analogous to code breaking, although I'm not completely convinced about that either.  Code breaking requires an underlying regular structure.  But people can reasonably disagree over whether or not playing a slot machine (or anything similar to it) is a game, and even things that have more player agency (meaning some) than playing a slot machine don't seem to me to be always pattern analysis but simply decision making because the underlying game doesn't have a pattern that repeats.  And while I'd like to think all game play involved decision making, but there are some games like Shoots and Ladders that lack decision making but are still commonly called games.That's an obvious nonsensical statement.  Quite obviously, the dungeon, all of its contents, the game world, and the characters therein are all fictions.  And quite obviously, stories actually exist.</blockquote>

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