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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Orcus" data-source="post: 207465" data-attributes="member: 1254">"since I've never seen any players actually think to run away"Kill them and then see what happens.There is nothing worse for D&D than the computer game/Diablo mentality that the DM will only sick level appropriate monsters on you.Guess what, you arent supposed to beat everything. D&D isnt a game of "clearing the level." Thats a computer game.Your game world should have some versimilitude. Monsters dont organize themselves into 1st level parts of the world and 3rd level parts and 9th level parts. If you players wander into the forest of death at 1st level, they shouldnt be surprised to be attacked by 5 trolls. Just like if they stroll into the Hall of the Specter King at 1st level they shouldnt complain when the hordes of undead descend on them.Give your players an encounter they cant handle. Dont be unfair, be realistic. If they go in the evil forest, hit them with 4 owl bears even if they are first level. They will learn to run or die.This is not unfair. In fact, it is the best thing you can do for your game. Believe me.Your players will learn that the world is dangerous. They will also find something they cant beat right away. Nothing motivates characters more than a loss. "I cant wait to go back to that dungeon and get that XXXX monster." Plus, it makes for great stories. Death is D&D is far from permanent and is often a great story focus. PC dies, PC group wants him raised, PCs go to priest but dont have the $$$, PC gets raised and geased to go on a quest, etc.Part of the problem is published modules. Modules are generally written for a specific level range. So DM says "hey, I have a group of 3rd level characters, I'll run module X since it is for that level." This progresses on, so that the charcaters never have an adventure they dont have a chance at beating. They learn that the DM will never overly challenge them. The game becomes boring.Nothing brings joy like the fear of death; because when that fear is real all adventures are exciting and all accomplishments mean something.As for the original post, prior to 3E's CR system (which, frankly is a good idea and well intentioned, but doesnt really work well) we used what you should still use: common sense. How hard is it to compare hit dice and take into account special attacks and abilities? You tell me, what is tougher: a 4 HD humanoid that has one attack with a short sword or a 2HD humanoid with claw, claw bite, all poisoned, and DR 5/silver? How hard was that? You act as if the CR system is a good one so what did people do before that. I say the CR system needs major work.For example, a troll is what CR? How many orcs (according to the rules) is the same CR? You find me one party of 6 first level characters that wouldnt clean up the orcs and get greased by the troll.And that doesnt even take into account the specifics of the party. Lets say you play in a low magic world where none of the PCs has a +1 weapon. Now you tell me, what is harder for them, fighting 4 shadows (CR 3 each) or 4 evil centaurs (also CR 3 each).CRs are at best a rough guide that is alone incomplete. You still need to factor in things like:Special equipment: what is the CR of an Ogre with +2 chain and a +2 weapon wearing boots of speed?Situational advantages: do 4 orcs walking down the forest path that you get the drop on have the same CR/EL as 4 orcs behind a spiked wall providing full cover armed with bows, flasks of flaming oil and a small ballista?Numbers: CR/EL really breaks down when you have a number of foes. Lots of smaller CR creatures will always be more difficult than one big CR monster. No matter what the CR rules say. Why? Because the single monster can rarely focus on more than one or two PCs while the PCs can all focus on it; numbers allow one or two monsters to engage each PC, preventing them from working together properly.Intelligence: 4 2HD humans will present much different threats if they charge mindlessly or if they use good battle tactics. That is not factored into CR.Reach: in my opinion the CR system does not truly take into account the extra danger that a creature with reach has. Ogres got a big boost in 3E.In short, we do the same thing now that we did then: use experience and common sense. You just need to learn how tough monsters are. I have been playing for 20+ years so I have a bit better of a guage (DMing many PCs fighting lots of different monsters) then perhaps a newbie.But even with my experience, when the 3E rules came out I called my group together and did an experiment. I suggest you try this.Pull some maps from WotC's online site. Draw them out. Then have your group make 1st level PCs.have them fight:an equal number of goblins w/melee weaponsan equal number of orcs w/melee weaponsone ogredouble the number of goblins, half with melee half with missilesame with orcsnow an ogre with 4 goblins with swordsnow an ogre with 4 goblins with bowsJust do it over and over until you start to see what makes the difference. No one dies for real. Bring them back to life and do it again.Your players will like learning the rules too and frankly will probably enjoy the break from roleplaying for some head bashing.Do it again with PCs at the relevent power change levels (3rd, 5th, 7th--the levels when good things happen: spell casters get access to higher level spells, etc)Nothing beats experience. Not even CRs. CRs are no better of a guage than hit dice coupled with common sense.Clark</blockquote>

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