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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
In Defense of 4E - a New Campaign Perspective
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<blockquote data-quote="The Crimson Binome" data-source="post: 7552707" data-attributes="member: 6775031"><p>The key difference is that monster abilities only function because those monsters are innately different within the reality of the game world. A dragon can breathe fire, because of normal biological differences that our characters can all see and understand. </p><p></p><p>It's different when you're talking about NPCs of playable races, since there is no obvious biological difference. For the most part, many NPCs (at least in 5E) have abilities that work similar to PC abilities, but streamlined a bit so that they're faster to run at the table. It would make sense that the PCs could pick up those tricks, if they stopped adventuring for a while and practiced what the NPCs were doing. Not so in 4E, where NPCs just work different, for no discernible reason. (I mean, we all know that they work different to make the gameplay more mechanically interesting, but that's not a sufficient explanation for our characters who actually live in that world.)</p><p>Minions fill an important role in terms of both gameplay and storytelling, but they don't make sense in terms of how the world works. In the context of high-level heroes fighting high-level enemies, a weaker enemy that you miss twice and then dies from the third attack is effectively similar to one with much lower AC that can take three hits before dropping, but only in the abstract. It doesn't make sense when you look at any of the individual steps, or move the creature to any context other than fighting high-level heroes.</p><p></p><p>HP capacity, in earlier editions, was an objective measurement of how much punishment you could take. Maybe a wizard could take 4 points of abstract trauma, while an ogre could take 29. An arrow from a longbow does about 5 points of abstract trauma, so we know that a wizard would fall after getting shot once, while the ogre could probably take six. </p><p></p><p>The weakest possible character in 4E is a level 1 wizard with 3 Con, which would have 13 HP. An arrow from a longbow now does about 10 points of abstract trauma, so the wizard can now probably survive one; but a level 8 ogre savage (which is the only stat block I can find) has 111 HP, so it can take 11 arrows before falling. But an ogre minion (which is level 11, according to Google) only has 1 HP, which means it will definitely die from the first arrow that actually hits it; in fact, it would die if the wizard limp-wristedly cuts it with their dagger. That's what I mean by it being weak. In any other edition, you actually have to hit an ogre with some objective amount of force if you want it to die, but 4E minions will die from an arbitrarily small application of force. (Although, in practice, high-level minions tend to die from high-level fighters hitting them with magical swords. Or the Rod of Reaving.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Crimson Binome, post: 7552707, member: 6775031"] The key difference is that monster abilities only function because those monsters are innately different within the reality of the game world. A dragon can breathe fire, because of normal biological differences that our characters can all see and understand. It's different when you're talking about NPCs of playable races, since there is no obvious biological difference. For the most part, many NPCs (at least in 5E) have abilities that work similar to PC abilities, but streamlined a bit so that they're faster to run at the table. It would make sense that the PCs could pick up those tricks, if they stopped adventuring for a while and practiced what the NPCs were doing. Not so in 4E, where NPCs just work different, for no discernible reason. (I mean, we all know that they work different to make the gameplay more mechanically interesting, but that's not a sufficient explanation for our characters who actually live in that world.) Minions fill an important role in terms of both gameplay and storytelling, but they don't make sense in terms of how the world works. In the context of high-level heroes fighting high-level enemies, a weaker enemy that you miss twice and then dies from the third attack is effectively similar to one with much lower AC that can take three hits before dropping, but only in the abstract. It doesn't make sense when you look at any of the individual steps, or move the creature to any context other than fighting high-level heroes. HP capacity, in earlier editions, was an objective measurement of how much punishment you could take. Maybe a wizard could take 4 points of abstract trauma, while an ogre could take 29. An arrow from a longbow does about 5 points of abstract trauma, so we know that a wizard would fall after getting shot once, while the ogre could probably take six. The weakest possible character in 4E is a level 1 wizard with 3 Con, which would have 13 HP. An arrow from a longbow now does about 10 points of abstract trauma, so the wizard can now probably survive one; but a level 8 ogre savage (which is the only stat block I can find) has 111 HP, so it can take 11 arrows before falling. But an ogre minion (which is level 11, according to Google) only has 1 HP, which means it will definitely die from the first arrow that actually hits it; in fact, it would die if the wizard limp-wristedly cuts it with their dagger. That's what I mean by it being weak. In any other edition, you actually have to hit an ogre with some objective amount of force if you want it to die, but 4E minions will die from an arbitrarily small application of force. (Although, in practice, high-level minions tend to die from high-level fighters hitting them with magical swords. Or the Rod of Reaving.) [/QUOTE]
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