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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Atlictoatl" data-source="post: 7602876" data-attributes="member: 6916204">Are you belaboring the bolded section to make a rhetorical point, or do you legitimately not understand how to explain minions at your table? Because we understand your rhetoric, and have pointed out why it's flawed and rhetorical. To continue picking at it implies either an inability to engage beyond what you've already said on the subject, or some other agenda.In the assumption that the conceptual intent of minions in 4e escapes you (though I suspect you do understand it, and are simply pretending confusion because you disagree with the design principle), let me briefly explain:If you want to represent an ogre surviving in the wild against the many forces other than PCs who are also in the wild -- when PCs aren't present -- then use the L8 Savage or Skirmisher. You can simulate a combat between it and the goblin band living nearby, or the dragon who wants to eat it for lunch. That shouldn't be complicated or confounding.However, plopping two L8 Ogre Savages and two L8 Ogre Skirmishers into a squad with a L16 Treant and two L16 Savage Minotaurs and setting them against the PCs isn't a good idea within the mechanics of the game. 4/7 of the encounter will feature creatures which can't really hit and which can't defend at all, and ultimately reduce them to bags of 100 HP that can be mostly ignored while the true threats are dealt with, until the party has to hack down 400 HP of creatures that pose no threat. Verisimilitude, maybe. But more on the side of tedious than fun.By introducing the abstraction of a L16 Ogre Bludgeoneer minion, the game introduces a gameable element, something which represents a minor threat that can actually bite but will perish very quickly. The party, reveling in their status as L16 planar heroes, can tear through a squad of four ogres while they fight the Treant and Savage Minotaurs. There's color there, there's nostalgia, there's the revelry of ginsu'ing something that once was a scary challenge, and the game doesn't bog down in a slog in pursuit of pretend verisimilitude.If 4e didn't use ogre minions at L16, in order to achieve the same narrative effect the PCs would have to be able to dish out 450 damage/round, and Savage Minotaurs would have to have at least 800 HP, and there would be massive numerical inflation. Instead, 4e came up with minions, which are a mechanical representation of the idea of exponential PC superiority at L16 over themselves at L6.The way you explain Ogre Minions is... "yeah, that's an ogre, you're just so much better than them now that you're able to kill them easily. If you want, think about the 12 damage you just did as at least 120 points of damage to a L6 PC. Badass, huh? It also means that, to a L6 PC, this Treant has over 3000 HP. Fortunately, the game has scaled things for play at the Paragon Tier so things are more manageable and fun. The takeaway is... you all are serious badasses now."If you can explain how dragons can be understood when they speak Common, how it is you can press animals from another plane into service when you summon them, and how Mimics disguise themselves convincingly as treasure chests, you should be able to explain the design intent and reality of a Minion without a ton of effort.</blockquote>

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