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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
In Defense of 4E - a New Campaign Perspective
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<blockquote data-quote="The Crimson Binome" data-source="post: 7604727" data-attributes="member: 6775031"><p>Put an ogre and a goblin in the same room. How much force does it take to KO the ogre? Is it more or less than the amount of force carried by a single arrow? How much force to KO the goblin? It should take less force to KO the goblin than it does to KO the ogre, right?</p><p></p><p>That's what I mean by consistency. In every earlier edition, we knew how hard you would have to hit the ogre in order to make it stop moving, and we knew the same in regards to the goblin. It was a consistent HP value. One hit from an arrow would kill a goblin, but not an ogre.</p><p></p><p>I guess the real question is, why do you believe the goblin should be represented as a minion in this scenario? If it's the same goblin which could fairly be represented using the standard goblin stat block, then we know for a fact that it can withstand the impact of at least one arrow. If you used the minion stat block, then that would no longer be the case. So which is the truth? Can it withstand an impact carrying X amount of force, or can it not?</p><p>If "hit" doesn't mean "hit", then something has gone severely wrong with your game. If a "hit" is only a "hit" against someone with few HP left, but is actually a "near miss that required energy expenditure" against an enemy with many HP, then that's an inconsistent narration of the process. I think we're in agreement, that 4E assumes this inconsistency. </p><p></p><p>Our only disagreement, is that earlier editions didn't <em>necessarily</em> assume that inconsistency. You <em>could</em> play earlier editions, and say that a "hit" was always a "hit". I know for a fact that you could do so, because I did, and so did everyone I'd ever played with. I don't know anyone who was able to play that way in 4E.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="The Crimson Binome, post: 7604727, member: 6775031"] Put an ogre and a goblin in the same room. How much force does it take to KO the ogre? Is it more or less than the amount of force carried by a single arrow? How much force to KO the goblin? It should take less force to KO the goblin than it does to KO the ogre, right? That's what I mean by consistency. In every earlier edition, we knew how hard you would have to hit the ogre in order to make it stop moving, and we knew the same in regards to the goblin. It was a consistent HP value. One hit from an arrow would kill a goblin, but not an ogre. I guess the real question is, why do you believe the goblin should be represented as a minion in this scenario? If it's the same goblin which could fairly be represented using the standard goblin stat block, then we know for a fact that it can withstand the impact of at least one arrow. If you used the minion stat block, then that would no longer be the case. So which is the truth? Can it withstand an impact carrying X amount of force, or can it not? If "hit" doesn't mean "hit", then something has gone severely wrong with your game. If a "hit" is only a "hit" against someone with few HP left, but is actually a "near miss that required energy expenditure" against an enemy with many HP, then that's an inconsistent narration of the process. I think we're in agreement, that 4E assumes this inconsistency. Our only disagreement, is that earlier editions didn't [I]necessarily[/I] assume that inconsistency. You [I]could[/I] play earlier editions, and say that a "hit" was always a "hit". I know for a fact that you could do so, because I did, and so did everyone I'd ever played with. I don't know anyone who was able to play that way in 4E. [/QUOTE]
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