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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
In Defense of 4E - a New Campaign Perspective
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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7606999" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>Or, alternatively, and still well within the bounds of HP as explained by Mr. Gygax, this particular giant, while just as tough as other giants, simply lacks the connections to fate and luck needed to avoid a particularly skilled thrust made by a dwarf fighter with his trusty bastard sword on the rd of Crackrock in the Forest of Grin, land of Kinergh. It is really that simple.</p><p></p><p>And when we are talking about humans who gain dozens, possibly even 100 hit points, over time, it is pretty hard to justify it any other way, as [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] has just pointed out.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I would leave someone like [MENTION=12749]MwaO[/MENTION] to comment on this in detail, but I find it unlikely to say the least. I'm sure it is POSSIBLE to neglect your attack capability to a great degree, but even level 1 PCs generally do the sorts of damage you are talking about here (Level 1 sword and board fighter, 16 STR, long sword, making an at-will attack, and assuming the player took even one feat which helps damage, is already at 1d8 + 5, and this is a low damage output PC using his worst attack. Give him 16 levels and he's now got STR 20, and at least a +3 weapon. This already got me to 1d8 + 10 and I have EIGHT FEATS to spend which can improve on that.). You're also unlikely to use at-will powers at all at level 16, you have 4 encounter powers, not to mention benefits from PPs, possibly racial and theme stuff, etc. Plus probably a dozen magic items worth of effects, your allies are constructing constant benefits, often to damage, etc. It would be very unusual for a fighter to do less than 20 points of damage at this level, and that would be the low end of his capability. Any sort of level 16 striker probably can't even do under 25 damage, even if he tried, and there's no chance at all of missing against an AC of 17...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, you cannot, the inconsistency is always there. Nor does 4e really, when it comes down to it, treat things differently in anything like realistic play (where AD&D characters are healed back to max hit points before the next day starts in the vast majority of cases for example). Surges add some options in narrative terms, etc. but in normal play I never found that the story being generated at the table was really all that different, it was just easier to do it in 4e.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 7606999, member: 82106"] Or, alternatively, and still well within the bounds of HP as explained by Mr. Gygax, this particular giant, while just as tough as other giants, simply lacks the connections to fate and luck needed to avoid a particularly skilled thrust made by a dwarf fighter with his trusty bastard sword on the rd of Crackrock in the Forest of Grin, land of Kinergh. It is really that simple. And when we are talking about humans who gain dozens, possibly even 100 hit points, over time, it is pretty hard to justify it any other way, as [MENTION=996]Tony Vargas[/MENTION] has just pointed out. I would leave someone like [MENTION=12749]MwaO[/MENTION] to comment on this in detail, but I find it unlikely to say the least. I'm sure it is POSSIBLE to neglect your attack capability to a great degree, but even level 1 PCs generally do the sorts of damage you are talking about here (Level 1 sword and board fighter, 16 STR, long sword, making an at-will attack, and assuming the player took even one feat which helps damage, is already at 1d8 + 5, and this is a low damage output PC using his worst attack. Give him 16 levels and he's now got STR 20, and at least a +3 weapon. This already got me to 1d8 + 10 and I have EIGHT FEATS to spend which can improve on that.). You're also unlikely to use at-will powers at all at level 16, you have 4 encounter powers, not to mention benefits from PPs, possibly racial and theme stuff, etc. Plus probably a dozen magic items worth of effects, your allies are constructing constant benefits, often to damage, etc. It would be very unusual for a fighter to do less than 20 points of damage at this level, and that would be the low end of his capability. Any sort of level 16 striker probably can't even do under 25 damage, even if he tried, and there's no chance at all of missing against an AC of 17... No, you cannot, the inconsistency is always there. Nor does 4e really, when it comes down to it, treat things differently in anything like realistic play (where AD&D characters are healed back to max hit points before the next day starts in the vast majority of cases for example). Surges add some options in narrative terms, etc. but in normal play I never found that the story being generated at the table was really all that different, it was just easier to do it in 4e. [/QUOTE]
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