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<blockquote data-quote="Crazy Jerome" data-source="post: 5619004" data-attributes="member: 54877">As a related aside, the huge irony for me in this particular discussion is that on one level I completely sympathize with those so bothered by the 4E choices.&nbsp; While I don't have any issue with most of the 4E elements discussed, pro or con, thus far, I have a similar &quot;bother&quot; against coarse granularity in skills.&nbsp; &nbsp;I recognize that, from a playability standpoint, why it has to be that way, but I think you can see the severity of the problem for me when I say that I find even games like Hero and GURPS insufficiently fine.&nbsp; 4E bothers me, 3E bothers me, Non-weapon proficiency rules bothered me.&nbsp; I can control it and enjoy the game, but it lurks there all the time.&nbsp; And frankly, even though 3E skills were finer grained, I found that overall, 4E bothers me less in this respect, because it did cross a line.&nbsp; 3E kept teasing me that if I only tweaked this or that skill, I'd quit being bothered.&nbsp; 3.5 both teased me, but also told me to lower expectations.&nbsp; 4E just stopped teasing me altogether and told me I would have to deal with it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!&nbsp; &nbsp; :eek:"&nbsp; data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" />&nbsp; Which, oddly, was more functional for me in actual play at the table.&nbsp;So it might be useful to note that even though we are talking about lines being crossed, solutions aren't always as easy as staying sufficient distance back from the edge.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Crazy Jerome, post: 5619004, member: 54877"] As a related aside, the huge irony for me in this particular discussion is that on one level I completely sympathize with those so bothered by the 4E choices. While I don't have any issue with most of the 4E elements discussed, pro or con, thus far, I have a similar "bother" against coarse granularity in skills. I recognize that, from a playability standpoint, why it has to be that way, but I think you can see the severity of the problem for me when I say that I find even games like Hero and GURPS insufficiently fine. 4E bothers me, 3E bothers me, Non-weapon proficiency rules bothered me. I can control it and enjoy the game, but it lurks there all the time. And frankly, even though 3E skills were finer grained, I found that overall, 4E bothers me less in this respect, because it did cross a line. 3E kept teasing me that if I only tweaked this or that skill, I'd quit being bothered. 3.5 both teased me, but also told me to lower expectations. 4E just stopped teasing me altogether and told me I would have to deal with it. :eek: Which, oddly, was more functional for me in actual play at the table. So it might be useful to note that even though we are talking about lines being crossed, solutions aren't always as easy as staying sufficient distance back from the edge. [/QUOTE]

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