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Message: <blockquote data-quote="tomBitonti" data-source="post: 5619865" data-attributes="member: 13107">A concrete exampleConcrete examples, I think, can serve this discussion.Working from the recent Thor movie, the Frost Giants had a kind of chilling touch, where they grabbed their opponent to cause cold damage that could be seen as an frozen patch that extended out from the point of contact.That seems to be close to abilities that I've seen in 3.5, say, Chill Touch (<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm" target="_blank">Chill Touch :: d20srd.org</a>), or say, Chill (EX), from(<a href="http://www.d20forge.com/contribution/display.html?id=468" target="_blank">D&D[MENTION=3300]d20[/MENTION]FORGE - Contributions - Creatures - Ice Golem</a>).In either case, an effect is generated by physical contact (a touch attack, or a slam attack).  Because the attack is imbued with a damaging aura (channeled negative energy, from chill touch, or intense code, from Chill).One has an immediate description of what happens when one of these attacks is made: A weapon (hand or fist) is imbued with damaging energy, an attack is made to make contact with the target, and on a hit, the imbued energy is transferred to the target.Looking at a 4E example.  (Not exact: Ranged vs. touch, but close enough): Ray of Frost, for a Wizard (see <a href="http://merricb.livejournal.com/44625.html" target="_blank">merricb: Meet the 4e Human Wizard</a>):Ray of Frost   Wizard Attack 1A blisteringly cold ray of white frost streaks to your target.Encounter * Arcane, Cold, ImplementStandard Action   Ranged 10Target: One creatureAttack: +4 vs. FortitudeHit: 1d6 + 4 cold damage, and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.No dissociation here!  Ray of frost can be visualized as a ray of intense cold.  An attack shoots the ray at a target, with a hit transferring intense cold to the target, causing damage.But let's look at:Brute Strike   Fighter Attack 1You shatter armor and bone with a ringing blow.Daily ✦ Martial, Reliable, WeaponStandard Action   Melee weaponTarget: One creatureAttack: +6 vs. ACHit: 6d6 + 3 damage.Miss: You don't expend the use of this power.(From: <a href="http://merricb.multiply.com/journal/item/356/Meet_the_4e_Dwarf_Fighter" target="_blank">Merric's Musings - Meet the 4e Dwarf Fighter</a>).Here, I see a disassociation.  Ignoring the power title and description (which is allowed, since these are reskinnable!) how is one to imagine the power works?It's easy enough to imagine that the power derives from a (literal) feat of strength: The fighter puts all of his strength into the blow, and pushes his muscles beyond their normal limit, to deliver the strongest, most powerful blow that he can.  (Although, that does run into a problem: That doesn't sound like a power that should be reliable!)The problem is that, unlike Ray of Frost, this is all imagined.  The power has no concrete, in-game, detail that explains where the extra damage came from.That right there seems to be a typical example of what is considered dissassociative.I would say, though, that the problem is not inherent in the use of powers, or their application to fighters.  I'd say instead that there wasn't enough effort put into creating a grammar for explaining fighter powers.  Why does the wizard power have arcane and cold keywords, while the fighter power has none?  Let's modify the fighter power slightly:Brute Strike   Fighter Attack 1You shatter armor and bone with a ringing blow.Daily ✦ Martial, Reliable, Weapon, StrengthTo my eye, that seems to make a huge difference!Thx!Tom Bitonti</blockquote>

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