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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5620613" data-attributes="member: 22779">All three options IMO have strengths and weaknesses.&nbsp; Take our Football example from way back.&nbsp; In every football game, there are bad calls.&nbsp; I think we can all agree on that.&nbsp; So, how do we add bad calls into our Football The Gridiron game?Well, there's three options:1.&nbsp; The DM does it.&nbsp; The DM decides when there is a bad call.2.&nbsp; The dice do it.&nbsp; Random tables or mechanics goverened by some sort of random number generator decide when a bad call occurs.3.&nbsp; The Players do it.&nbsp; The Players decide when there is a bad call.Now, all three options have strengths and weaknesses.1.&nbsp; The DM does it.&nbsp; Well, the strength here lies in the strength of the DM.&nbsp; A good DM will be able to have bad calls when it best enhances game play.&nbsp; The downside here is that it places a LOT of responsibility in the hands of the DM and if he screws up, it's really going to hurt the game.2.&nbsp; The Dice do it.&nbsp; Now we have a truly objective mechanic.&nbsp; There is no &quot;right&quot; time for the bad call, it just happens when it happens.&nbsp; Sometimes that's going to lead to great results, sometimes it's going to be meaningless and sometimes it's going to be outright wonky, depending on how the dice gods are feeling today.3.&nbsp; The Players do it.&nbsp; This would be the 4e approach generally.&nbsp; The players have a limited resource (X number of bad calls per period of time - could be quarter, could be game, whatever) and they have to manage that resource.&nbsp; On the plus side, it puts the players in the drivers seat.&nbsp; Instead of simply reacting to things beyond their control, they have direct input to how the game plays out.&nbsp; On the downside, not everyone WANTS this level of player control.Now, how does this relate to disassociated mechanics?&nbsp; Well, take the Great Catch daily power.&nbsp; The player can choose to make his Great Catch now or later.&nbsp; He's only got one.&nbsp; It might win the game or it might be meaningless as the quarterback coughs up the ball on the next play.&nbsp; Is there an in game justification for why they only get one Great Catch per game?&nbsp; Well, sorta.&nbsp; How many Great Catches do you really get in a single game? Typically, you can usually point to one great catch in a game, something that makes the replays on Sports Center that night.&nbsp; You generally don't get more than one.&nbsp; Is it really that unrealistic to allow the players to dictate one Great Catch per game?&nbsp; For some people it is.&nbsp; It totally breaks suspension of disbelief since the player is deciding when that Great Catch happens.&nbsp; I can get that.&nbsp; I understand.&nbsp; It's certainly a pretty big change from earlier editions where everything was either a Type 1 or Type 2 determined event (either DM dictated or Randomly determined).&nbsp; I'm not sure, though, that adding Type 3 (Player Dictated) is such a bad thing.&nbsp; After all, there are still loads and loads of Type 1 and Type 2 events going on in 4e.&nbsp; This is just adding stuff, not necessarily taking away.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5620613, member: 22779"] All three options IMO have strengths and weaknesses. Take our Football example from way back. In every football game, there are bad calls. I think we can all agree on that. So, how do we add bad calls into our Football The Gridiron game? Well, there's three options: 1. The DM does it. The DM decides when there is a bad call. 2. The dice do it. Random tables or mechanics goverened by some sort of random number generator decide when a bad call occurs. 3. The Players do it. The Players decide when there is a bad call. Now, all three options have strengths and weaknesses. 1. The DM does it. Well, the strength here lies in the strength of the DM. A good DM will be able to have bad calls when it best enhances game play. The downside here is that it places a LOT of responsibility in the hands of the DM and if he screws up, it's really going to hurt the game. 2. The Dice do it. Now we have a truly objective mechanic. There is no "right" time for the bad call, it just happens when it happens. Sometimes that's going to lead to great results, sometimes it's going to be meaningless and sometimes it's going to be outright wonky, depending on how the dice gods are feeling today. 3. The Players do it. This would be the 4e approach generally. The players have a limited resource (X number of bad calls per period of time - could be quarter, could be game, whatever) and they have to manage that resource. On the plus side, it puts the players in the drivers seat. Instead of simply reacting to things beyond their control, they have direct input to how the game plays out. On the downside, not everyone WANTS this level of player control. Now, how does this relate to disassociated mechanics? Well, take the Great Catch daily power. The player can choose to make his Great Catch now or later. He's only got one. It might win the game or it might be meaningless as the quarterback coughs up the ball on the next play. Is there an in game justification for why they only get one Great Catch per game? Well, sorta. How many Great Catches do you really get in a single game? Typically, you can usually point to one great catch in a game, something that makes the replays on Sports Center that night. You generally don't get more than one. Is it really that unrealistic to allow the players to dictate one Great Catch per game? For some people it is. It totally breaks suspension of disbelief since the player is deciding when that Great Catch happens. I can get that. I understand. It's certainly a pretty big change from earlier editions where everything was either a Type 1 or Type 2 determined event (either DM dictated or Randomly determined). I'm not sure, though, that adding Type 3 (Player Dictated) is such a bad thing. After all, there are still loads and loads of Type 1 and Type 2 events going on in 4e. This is just adding stuff, not necessarily taking away. [/QUOTE]

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