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Message: <blockquote data-quote="wrecan" data-source="post: 5626895" data-attributes="member: 64825">I'm not sure I understand how narrative can supersede contextualization since the narrative is a result of the contextualization of what happens at the game table.I don't think that's specific to disassociated mechanics.  All mechanics place themselves above the other factors because only mechanics are rules that dictate specific results.Let's take the good old "Stinking Cloud" spell.  The spell dictates that the victim (assuming he fails his save) begins to retch and vomit for a specific period of time.  That's a specific mechanical effect, and I would not classify it as a disassociated effect.  Barring the DM and players agreeing to ignore it, this effect applies even if the victim had been established as having an empty belly, even if the heroic sweep of the story is ruined by making the hero retch in a given circumstance.  The Stinking Cloud mechanic has elevated itself above what some might consider to be the physical laws of the world, above the player's vision of his avatar's construct, our own perceived real-world experiences, perhaps the GM's own personal interpretation of the fictional world construct.  But that's because that's what mechanics do.  They demand to be applied, well, mechanically.  In this respect, disassociated mechanics like hit points, attack rolls and daily powers are no different than associated mechanics like stinking cloud spells.In the end, with respect to contextualization and narrative, I think the narrative follows (and is in fact created by) the contextualization of the mechanics.  The basic flow is:Player/DM declares what action is attemptedPlayer/DM rolls dice to determine if action is successfulPlayer/DM consults the mechanical effect of the resultsPlayer/DM describes (i.e., contextualizes) those results into the narrativeOther Players/DM almost always accept that description.  If not, then the group will replace it with one the group can accept.Most of this time this occurs so quickly, that you don't even note the discrete steps.  This can also occur without dice or mechanics.  Does the following sound familiar:DM: After you knock, a loud chime resounds through the hall and the doors open.  You enter the duchess' chambers.  She is in an exquisite gown, and she is flanked by her exchequer, her master-of-arms and some guards wielding halberds.  She acknowledges you and says "I have heard much of you, Heroes of Westerly.  I wodner how much of the legends are true."Tom: I say "Nice knockers!"DM: No, you don't.Tom: What?  I meant in the hall.DM: Don't say that.Harry: Tom, don't be a jerk.Tom: Fine.  What happened?  The player (Tom) declared his attempted action (a blue joke) and the DM and other players rejected that addition to the narrative and replaced it with their own (no blue joke).  It happens all the time in games and we rarely consider them.  It's only when the mechanics are of a style who contextualization we haven't yet internalized, does it become jarring to us.</blockquote>

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