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<blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5627443" data-attributes="member: 957">It means without reason that needs to be applied to the plot.But it is circular logic to say that when I don't like A because of B that B exists because I don't like A.First, Huh?How many times have I pointed out that 4E does a great job of doing what it intends to do and clearly a lot of people like it.Now, if we are going to be confrontational about it, go look at the &quot;one picture&quot; thread.&nbsp; You'll notice a pattern that a lot (not &quot;all&quot;, but a notable portion) of anti-3E posts do not portray anything to do with the narrative merits of the game but simply portray it as really hard or complex or daunting.&nbsp; I readily stipulate that this has NOTHING to do with you personally.&nbsp; But if you want to compare fan bases as a whole, then 4E would take a serious hit if it lost the &quot;save me from the hard&quot; portion.&nbsp; Which is fine.&nbsp; An easy relaxing fun experience is commendable.&nbsp; But &quot;all RPGers&quot; doesn't offer a lot of support to your claim.It isn't that I &quot;can't&quot;, it is that the mechanics &quot;can't&quot;.&nbsp; As I said, no novelist anywhere would preconceive that a character has a set of capabilities that work once a day and never more regardless of circumstances, much less have all major characters, regardless of their individual nature, have this same encounter/daily metric on their behavior.&nbsp; So, if you want to produce a game experience that exactly feels like being inside a natural story then the encounter/daily system is &quot;wrong&quot;.&nbsp; Explaining to me how you can take individual events out of context and justify them is both completely accepted and also fully futile in changing the point.&nbsp; Now, on your points, I completely agree with (i), I think that is clear.&nbsp; I certainly agree that (ii) in that it is not at all required, just as a random example with no implications intended, a one evening kick in the door &quot;beer and pretzels&quot; style game can be huge fun and my point is pretty well irrelevant to that.On (iii), in the strictest terms I don't agree with it.&nbsp; They may play 4E and feel exactly like they are in a novel.&nbsp; I accept that.&nbsp; But, if they are then they are either ignoring or unaware of the differences.&nbsp; And since they are having fun that is all that matters.&nbsp; But they are not achieving the same feeling I am talking about.&nbsp; There is a different standard for that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BryonD, post: 5627443, member: 957"] It means without reason that needs to be applied to the plot. But it is circular logic to say that when I don't like A because of B that B exists because I don't like A. First, Huh? How many times have I pointed out that 4E does a great job of doing what it intends to do and clearly a lot of people like it. Now, if we are going to be confrontational about it, go look at the "one picture" thread. You'll notice a pattern that a lot (not "all", but a notable portion) of anti-3E posts do not portray anything to do with the narrative merits of the game but simply portray it as really hard or complex or daunting. I readily stipulate that this has NOTHING to do with you personally. But if you want to compare fan bases as a whole, then 4E would take a serious hit if it lost the "save me from the hard" portion. Which is fine. An easy relaxing fun experience is commendable. But "all RPGers" doesn't offer a lot of support to your claim. It isn't that I "can't", it is that the mechanics "can't". As I said, no novelist anywhere would preconceive that a character has a set of capabilities that work once a day and never more regardless of circumstances, much less have all major characters, regardless of their individual nature, have this same encounter/daily metric on their behavior. So, if you want to produce a game experience that exactly feels like being inside a natural story then the encounter/daily system is "wrong". Explaining to me how you can take individual events out of context and justify them is both completely accepted and also fully futile in changing the point. Now, on your points, I completely agree with (i), I think that is clear. I certainly agree that (ii) in that it is not at all required, just as a random example with no implications intended, a one evening kick in the door "beer and pretzels" style game can be huge fun and my point is pretty well irrelevant to that. On (iii), in the strictest terms I don't agree with it. They may play 4E and feel exactly like they are in a novel. I accept that. But, if they are then they are either ignoring or unaware of the differences. And since they are having fun that is all that matters. But they are not achieving the same feeling I am talking about. There is a different standard for that. [/QUOTE]

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