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Message: <blockquote data-quote="BryonD" data-source="post: 5629212" data-attributes="member: 957">Thread has moved quite a ways along in between my checking in.  (At least in page count...)I'd hope it is clear that, from my own POV, I completely agree with this statement.I did say, and still do, that 4E doesn't feel like you are in the novel.  So I guess that would reasonably imply that immersion is lost.  But as I have also mentioned several time now, it is easier to come to understandings when things are considered from reasonable relative positions rather than as absolute black vs white.No game is perfect.  3E is far from an exception.  I ignore things all the time in 3E that point out that the game is not a novel.  And just as I can in 3E, I can in 4E.  But the things in 3E are sacrifices to practicality.  Certainly if someone shows me a better mousetrap, I'll move on to that game.  But the goal of 3E (at least one of the goals) was to provide the kind of game experience I desire and the places where it doesn't are due to necessity.  The designers of 4E made direct comments on multiple occasions to the effect that their design goals were different.  And I accept that.  4E fans have praised many of these changes in focus as being some of the best things to every happen in gaming.  (mild hyperbole, but only very mild)  The point is, these justifications are not not remotely wrong, but they simply are a distinction.  The list of things in 3E that don't feel right does not include things like "so that the math works", "so that it is easier to DM", "so that it takes less prep time".  The list goes on.But I can ignore these things in 4E just as I can in 3E.  But, the bottom line is: Why should I?  There is a better game that at least tries to prioritize the things I prefer.  And, no doubt about it, 4E is better at the things that are its priority.But rather than fight back and forth over black and whites of is and is not immersive, just look at the whole package and where the priorities lie.I can ignore the patterns.  But there is no good reason why I should.</blockquote>

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